Ferrying a Plane
- Thread starter c172captain
- Start date
First come, first served.
You either go around the weather or you don't. Being IFR doesn't change that.
-mini
CK
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is talking about how safe the actual flying is, a flight plan has little bearing on that. It will certainly make the flight safer. I would consider any part between the time I leave my departure airport until the time I land at the arrival a part of my flight. If I make an emergency landing in a canyon in Arizona, that landing and the aftermath is part of my flight. The aftermath will certainly be better (or safer) if I have emergency services on the way in two hours as opposed to six. I would rather take precautions prior to taking off than after a problem has already happened. Nothing would suck more than sitting in the shade where it is still 100*F and thinking "I sure wish I filed IFR!".
Alex.
So, you file IFR and go down in a non-radar environment and filing IFR is going to save the day because they know where you are when you called in your emergency, right?
...and you couldn't make the same call with your position VFR?
So now let's throw the NORDO scenario at it. You are NORDO on an IFR flight plan and go down. They don't know you're down until you don't show up on RADAR again. Same thing VFR. They don't know until you don't show up and close your flight plan. You're still going to be sitting in the shade where it's 100*F thinking "Maybe I shouldn't have flown over this kind of terrain...".
Unless the OP has O2 in the plane, going IFR could be problematic in that part of the country. Some of those MEAs are up there. Going VFR you can just go around the hills. No one says you have to fly in areas of no radar or comms coverage. Just pick up VFR flight following when able and if they're too busy, monitor their frequency anyway.
Not to mention. A plane you don't know. Gyros that who knows how reliable they really are? Do you really want to be tempted to pop through a layer thinking "I'm on an IFR clearance/flight plan anyway" only to have the joy of cruising over the mountains partial panel avoiding ice while you're trying to find yourself a place to land?
-mini
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
I just got back flying a 172 from Houston to Phoenix (12 hours each way) then flying Houston to Louisville KY (7 hours each way).
Recommendations:
1.Take a camera
2. Don't fly through the mountains at night
3. Take an Ipod!!!!!
4. Pick up flight following if going VFR, that's much better than a flight plan IMO.
5. Fuel management!!!! Don't trust the POH for fuel burn, note how much fuel you took on at your first fuel stop and crunch the numbers
6. Handheld GPS
7. Survival kit (water, protein bars, flashlight w/batteries, knife, gerber etc.)
8. Don't push the wx....wait it out if you need to
9. Check fuel prices on Air Nav and plot them on your sectionals if fuel price matters to you prior to getting to your fuel stops
10. Don't drink too much water/soda/etc the day before and during the flight otherwise unecessary stops will be made
11. Have fun. You wont forget it.
12. Did I say bring your IPOD?
13. Pick me up in Houston and I'll fly with you the rest of the way
Recommendations:
1.Take a camera
2. Don't fly through the mountains at night
3. Take an Ipod!!!!!
4. Pick up flight following if going VFR, that's much better than a flight plan IMO.
5. Fuel management!!!! Don't trust the POH for fuel burn, note how much fuel you took on at your first fuel stop and crunch the numbers
6. Handheld GPS
7. Survival kit (water, protein bars, flashlight w/batteries, knife, gerber etc.)
8. Don't push the wx....wait it out if you need to
9. Check fuel prices on Air Nav and plot them on your sectionals if fuel price matters to you prior to getting to your fuel stops
10. Don't drink too much water/soda/etc the day before and during the flight otherwise unecessary stops will be made
11. Have fun. You wont forget it.
12. Did I say bring your IPOD?
13. Pick me up in Houston and I'll fly with you the rest of the way
c172captain
Well-Known Member
13. Pick me up in Houston and I'll fly with you the rest of the way
Unless someone else comes with me that may be a possibility haha
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
I guess I dont get it?
But being IFR, they will usually tell you if you are about to fly into (over/under) something that might cause trouble. They will also pass along pilot reports if it is relevant to your flight (turb, precip, ice, embedded storms, ect). All kinds of info that might be available to you that you would not have if you were just VFR. I dont see how having someone watching your flight, that is there to serve you, can't make it safer.
The bolded was for traffic separation and sequencing. You'll be sequenced first come first served (well....that's what the AIM says) or at least what ever is most convenient for ATC whether you're VFR or IFR. They aren't generally going to put you in a 172 ahead of a G5 doing 2x your ground speed on final because you filed an IFR flight plan.
Separation is ALWAYS the PIC's responsibility. See and avoid. Always. Whether you're IFR, VFR, in a cloud, upside down, etc. Having ATC call them out is nice, but you're still responsible.
They'll give you the same PIREPS and information if you're VFR. You just have to ask and ATC will generally give you what they can. "Hey center, you seeing any weather up ahead cuz it doesn't look good?" "Yeah area of moderate precipitation at your 12 o clock for the next 10 miles"
-mini
IslandFlyer
Well-Known Member
Let me know...I'm game! KDWH
CK
Well-Known Member
Do you really believe that going IFR is no safer than VFR and that there are no considerable benefits to going IFR even when the weather is good?
You certainly could. The problem is, most pilots, especially low time pilots over the mountians for the first time, will be busy flying the airplane, trying to fix the problem, and focusing on finding a landing spot. I know this because I was once that low time pilot, over the mountians, in a single, when the engine failed. A radio call was the last thing on my mind. Sure it should have been, but the simple fact was that it was not.
Because we were IFR, ATC questioned why we no longer at 15,000 and we were able to declare an emergency sortly before losing radio contact. Had we been VFR, we would have dropped off of the controllers screen and he probally would not have given us a second thought.
There are many differences between VFR and IFR in this situation. IFR they will launch a SAR in a relatively short time if you do not show up. VFR will they call the FBO a few hours later. If the guy says "Oh yeah, I saw a red and white Cherokee land, they are here" (which happens a lot), you are screwed until your family gets concerned. There very few routes from CA to TX that do not involve flying over some sort of inhospitable terrain.
Again, if you are just randomly picking your way around the hills, it will be very hard for the SAR teams to find you. If you cannot meet the MEAs then IFR is not an option and this entire discussion is moot.
Flying IFR and in IMC are two completely different things. I flew over the mountains in IMC 8 hours before the engine quit on my flight. Had it happened then there is no question in my mind I would be dead. I will never advise flying a single in IMC over that kind of terrain.
Alex.
You certainly could. The problem is, most pilots, especially low time pilots over the mountians for the first time, will be busy flying the airplane, trying to fix the problem, and focusing on finding a landing spot. I know this because I was once that low time pilot, over the mountians, in a single, when the engine failed. A radio call was the last thing on my mind. Sure it should have been, but the simple fact was that it was not.
Because we were IFR, ATC questioned why we no longer at 15,000 and we were able to declare an emergency sortly before losing radio contact. Had we been VFR, we would have dropped off of the controllers screen and he probally would not have given us a second thought.
There are many differences between VFR and IFR in this situation. IFR they will launch a SAR in a relatively short time if you do not show up. VFR will they call the FBO a few hours later. If the guy says "Oh yeah, I saw a red and white Cherokee land, they are here" (which happens a lot), you are screwed until your family gets concerned. There very few routes from CA to TX that do not involve flying over some sort of inhospitable terrain.
Again, if you are just randomly picking your way around the hills, it will be very hard for the SAR teams to find you. If you cannot meet the MEAs then IFR is not an option and this entire discussion is moot.
Flying IFR and in IMC are two completely different things. I flew over the mountains in IMC 8 hours before the engine quit on my flight. Had it happened then there is no question in my mind I would be dead. I will never advise flying a single in IMC over that kind of terrain.
Alex.
I had a nice reply typed up but I'm not sure where it went. I'm posting on a few different message boards, so it could be that somewhere someone's clicking on a minitour golf post and going "huh?" but I digest...
Short version:
Yes, there are advantages sometimes. Yes, there are disadvantages sometimes.
I'd like to see the "official" policy on late / missing aircraft whether VFR or IFR. I don't remember seeing anything about FSS or ATC calling the FBO to ask if you landed. I'm sure they could do that, but you'd think they would still need to talk to the PIC just to make sure. Maybe they don't and talking to "random desk girl" at the FBO is good enough.
-mini
CK
Well-Known Member
When I worked at an FBO I got about one call a week from FSS. They were satisfied if I said I saw the airplane on the ramp. They may have continued the search, but it is my understanding that the search stopped once someone said the plane was there. I forgot to cancle an IFR flight plan one day when the weather was crappy and Philly stopped the search once the lady at the FBO said I had arrived.
Alex.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
jrh
Well-Known Member
CitationKid has done an excellent job of articulating why I say IFR is safer than VFR.
Now, let me throw this out for more fuel on the fire...
If flying IFR is no better than VFR, why are airlines required to always operate under IFR?
And BTW, I never said VFR is unsafe. I've literally flown to all corners of the country under VFR. However, I firmly believe IFR is safe-er- if possible. It's all about risk management.
Now, let me throw this out for more fuel on the fire...
If flying IFR is no better than VFR, why are airlines required to always operate under IFR?
And BTW, I never said VFR is unsafe. I've literally flown to all corners of the country under VFR. However, I firmly believe IFR is safe-er- if possible. It's all about risk management.
CK
Well-Known Member
I'll send you a PM. It's one of the few stories I don't like to share publicly.
Alex.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
[FONT="]<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o
referrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <vath o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" style='width:149.25pt; height:185.25pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Owner\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.emz" o:title=""/> </v:shape><![endif]-->[/FONT]If you plan on doing ferrying a lot buy yourself a Spot locator
Its a GPS locator that your family and the owner can track. If you have problems you can push the help button to tell the monitoring company and they activate the proper help. Remember the old ELTs (121.5) are not monitored by AF SARSAT satellites anymore
Not sure, but I think its also a 409mhz Personal beacon that can be tracked buy SAR units.
Subscrption is $100 or $150 a year depending on services you want.
referrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <vath o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" style='width:149.25pt; height:185.25pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Owner\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.emz" o:title=""/> </v:shape><![endif]-->[/FONT]If you plan on doing ferrying a lot buy yourself a Spot locatorIts a GPS locator that your family and the owner can track. If you have problems you can push the help button to tell the monitoring company and they activate the proper help. Remember the old ELTs (121.5) are not monitored by AF SARSAT satellites anymore
Not sure, but I think its also a 409mhz Personal beacon that can be tracked buy SAR units.
Subscrption is $100 or $150 a year depending on services you want.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Now hold on.. We are not talking about responsibility, we were talking about safety and nothing else. Which on is safer? It is as simple as A or B:
A. Someone telling you where the traffic is, and letting you know there is turb, ice, weather, ect. is.
B. Nobody telling you anything about traffic, and only getting a weather update if you ask for it, and thats only IF they have time for you. Because you are NOT a priority.
I forgot to add that I pick A.
I'm so glad this came up. I knew it was going to. I knew someone would play the "the airlines are required to be IFR" card. Here's the thing. They aren't.
121.611
No person may dispatch or release an aircraft for VFR operation unless the ceiling and visibility en route, as indicated by available weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, are and will remain at or above applicable VFR minimums until the aircraft arrives at the airport or airports specified in the dispatch or flight release.
Also see 121.649 and .667 ... there are others, but I'm not going to get into the communications and navigation equipment requirements for VFR flights.
So if the airlines aren't "required" to go IFR all the time, it surely can't be any safer, right? That was your measuring stick...not mine.
That works fantastic ... if they call the traffic to you. Yesterday we were IFR going into an airport underlying a class B. No call...nothing until the TCAS went ape shizzy. Funny thing about TCAS, it doesn't actually pick up the jumpers. So we still had to be looking out the window. Being IFR added zero safety to that flight. The same exact thing could/would have happened if we were VFR.
-mini