Who is retiring soon?/ Age 60/65 rule...

[surreal1221]

My goodness man.

Capt. C doesn't have any empirical data to show you.

It was a quotation from his father, get over it.

 

[Kestrel452]

My goodness man.

Capt. C doesn't have any empirical data to show you.

It was a quotation from his father, get over it.

I didn't want to let this jerk get away with calling pilots mentally handicapped. That is some we REALLY don't need in times like these.

 

[Kestrel452]

I want to stave off Shiny Jet Syndrome and any kind of entitlement attitude. Both will negatively affect my career, and that of others. And part of the process includes sticking up for the other guys.

 

[surreal1221]

I didn't want to let this jerk get away with calling pilots mentally handicapped. That is some we REALLY don't need in times like these.

I yi yi. . .I'm not fighting Capt. C's fight, but I know 100% he is not a jerk, and I'm sure if his father made a son like him that his father is also not a jerk.

That being said, sometimes things are said in jest when perhaps a multitude of circumstances were in place (alcohol, partying, talking shop. . .).

Lighten up.

 

[Kestrel452]

That being said, something things are said in jest when perhaps a multitude of circumstances were in place (alcohol, partying, talking shop. . .).

Lighten up.

You're right man. But some of the things said tonight were not in good taste.

 

[SteveC]

I didn't want to let this jerk get away with calling pilots mentally handicapped. That is some we REALLY don't need in times like these.

There is no law (or forum rule) against having an opinion. Opinions are funny things because they can vary all over the place. Some are logical, some are emotional, some can be proven with facts and others may be completely non-sensical. It is not a linear spectrum with "right" at one end and "wrong" at the other, it is a three-dimensional matrix with plenty of shadings and colorations.

When someone posts an opinion with which we disagree, we have a few options that are acceptable on this website, including:
1. presenting your own opinion, or
2. presenting evidence to refute his opinion, or
3. well....I'm not sure there is a #3.

A couple of things we can't do:
1. make them agree with us, or
2. get personal (like calling someone a jerk).

I know it is difficult at times, but if we can't get into a discussion that debates the pros and cons about someone's opinion, the only thing that we can do is make our case, state our thoughts and reasons and opinions, then leave it out there. There are literally hundreds of people out there that read these threads without joining in, sometimes we need to just pretend that we are pleading a case in front of them, and realize that we will never know whether or not we have won. If we are sure of our position, then we can rest assured that the unspoken masses will see the validity of our ideas. And that just might have to be the only satisfaction that we will receive.

C'est la vie!

 

[Polar742]

I want to retire before I die in a bunk deadheading. At 55, I will have flown 121 (as long as the stars are in alignment) for 33 years. At 60, 38 year. At 65 43 YEARS.

I think after 30 years of doing something one should be able to say "I'm done. I bent no metal, I scraped no paint. Success at last". Then go hop in my Cessna 195 and buzz around for fun.

Of course this was purely ICAO's decision, but it was sold to the US pilot ranks as "recouping retirement", when the FEDS didn't really care because the people that sign the checks for them said they'd do it.

So then end game will be a slow, but steady stretching of the pay scales in the CBAs so most pilots will still not make the top earnings until the last 5 or so years of employment. Any early retirement benefits will be reverse engineered from the age of 65 instead of 60. Add to that the '07-'12 "career expectation pause" given to guys like me in our early 30s.

I'll look back at the grand days of the early millenia flying my little RJ over my house 3 times a day to EYW, FLL and MIA, 4 days a week, never on the weekends, making 60k as the "good ol' days"

Luckily, according to Yahoo!, I already live in one of the top ten affordable places to retire. http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/10-affordable-places-to-retire.html

 

[surreal1221]

I'll look back at the grand days of the early millenia flying my little RJ over my house 3 times a day to EYW, FLL and MIA, 4 days a week, never on the weekends, making 60k as the "good ol' days"

Luckily, according to Yahoo!, I already live in one of the top ten affordable places to retire. http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/10-affordable-places-to-retire.html

And the bold is why a lot of us younger guys/girls are having our issues with this.

Now, I don't care one way or the other. . .well. . .maybe I do, but it's pointless.

That being said, I see that we must utilize our powers elsewhere to maximize our own earning potential later on down the road instead of waiting until we're between 60-65 to finally be making our desired incomes.

I don't think many of us want our glory days as pilots to be that as RJ gear slingers who were stuck as an FO for 10 years or as a 64 year old RJ captain who spent 30+ years at one company (hah! Good luck). Though this opens the door to the "stepping stone mentality" debate. Sure, it might be a stepping stone, but that doesn't mean we should be happy with stepping stone wages and benefits.

That being said, we each make our bed and we have to sleep at some point.

 

[Polar742]

And the bold is why a lot of us younger guys/girls are having our issues with this.

Now, I don't care one way or the other. . .well. . .maybe I do, but it's pointless.

That being said, I see that we must utilize our powers elsewhere to maximize our own earning potential later on down the road instead of waiting until we're between 60-65 to finally be making our desired incomes.

I don't think many of us want our glory days as pilots to be that as RJ gear slingers who were stuck as an FO for 10 years or as a 64 year old RJ captain who spent 30+ years at one company (hah! Good luck). Though this opens the door to the "stepping stone mentality" debate. Sure, it might be a stepping stone, but that doesn't mean we should be happy with stepping stone wages and benefits.

That being said, we each make our bed and we have to sleep at some point.

I figured since it was slathered like jelly on an english muffin, I wouldn't need the tag.

But thanks for the refresher training...

 

[surreal1221]

I'm sorry, was just also giving my opinion that - I thought - was in agreement with your viewpoint.

My apologizes.

My comments weren't sarcastic in any way. Just a bit of perspective, as useless as it might appear to you.

 

[Polar742]

I'm sorry, was just also giving my opinion that - I thought - was in agreement with your viewpoint.

My apologizes.

My comments weren't sarcastic in any way. Just a bit of perspective, as useless as it might appear to you.

The sarcasm tag was what I left off of my post.

Just don't forget, the vast majority of us that post on this thread that aren't regional pilots now, were for alot of years. Some of us before the RJs were really around.

 

[surreal1221]

Yes. Of Course.

 

[derg]

Just wait until you hit 65...

Sometimes it's better when there's a couple of knowledgeable guys hashing out their differences about an issue, just to keep your fingers free of the machinery and see what transpires.

 

[Ian_J]

Why does it matter?

It matters because you have no airline experience and are arguing (very poorly) with a Legacy Airline Pilot.

 

[Velocipede]

He also thinks anyone that wants to fly after 60 is mentally handicapped.

I guess that's one man's opinion. And an insulting one at that.

And Velo, you know what us Delta guys call Alaska Airlines? Delta Connection .

You might be surprised to hear that opinion is shared by at least one member of our MEC.

Hell, he is hoping that planes with over-60 captains start crashing so they reverse age-65. I love my Dad, he's hard-core.

Sounds like its a good thing he retired early. Any pilot who "hopes" planes start crashing is, in his own terms, "mentally handicapped."

If I am still flying an airliner when I am 64.5 then I have failed life so, please just shoot me then.

Perhaps you should consider taking stock market classes and leaving the industry. That way, you and "hard core" could share some quality time together AND you'd make way for some poor regional schlub at DAL.

Like I said, my pop is hard-core. The only way to change something is if planes start crashing. I really hope that after this Colgan crash we can start requiring some higher hiring standards at the regionals. People dieing is the only way for things to change. History proves this.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

A few times. What I said is that the only way rules change is when people die. So, logic dictates that the only way for the age-65 rule to be reversed is for planes to start falling out of the sky with over-60 captains.

Yep. You said it. Several times. And the idea is still offensive on so many levels it defies belief. You REALLY hope people get killed so you can advance faster. WOW.


:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I want to stave off Shiny Jet Syndrome and any kind of entitlement attitude. Both will negatively affect my career, and that of others. And part of the process includes sticking up for the other guys.

You really need to spend more time around professional pilots. When it comes to issues that effect career progression its "me, Me, ME!"

That applies to mergers, seniority list integration and Age 65.

You're right man. But some of the things said tonight were not in good taste.

Or as Mr. Spock would say, "Coloquially expressed but essentially correct."

[/I]Of course this was purely ICAO's decision, but it was sold to the US pilot ranks as "recouping retirement", when the FEDS didn't really care because the people that sign the checks for them said they'd do it.

Quite wrong. No one had to "sell" the rule change. It was imposed to conform to ICAO standards. No more, no less.

Any early retirement benefits will be reverse engineered from the age of 65 instead of 60. Add to that the '07-'12 "career expectation pause" given to guys like me in our early 30s.

And there is the essential logical failure. No one should have "career expectations". Because pilot careers are closely tied to economic conditions, any assumptions YOU make at any point in time are instantly negated when those conditions change.

The other erroneous assumption pilots make is that EVERYONE will make it to the Legacy airlines. The flying profession is a pyramid. Assuming YOU are going to make it to the top is a very big assumption indeed.

That being said, I see that we must utilize our powers elsewhere to maximize our own earning potential later on down the road instead of waiting until we're between 60-65 to finally be making our desired incomes.

Correctomundo.

I don't think many of us want our glory days as pilots to be that as RJ gear slingers who were stuck as an FO for 10 years or as a 64 year old RJ captain who spent 30+ years at one company (hah! Good luck).

I don't know about that. I've seen some pretty senior Captains at places like Horizon and American Eagle. They aren't going anywhere. To assume it can't or won't happen to you is erroneous.

Though this opens the door to the "stepping stone mentality" debate. Sure, it might be a stepping stone, but that doesn't mean we should be happy with stepping stone wages and benefits.

Nor should you. Because it just might end up being the ultimate destination.

It matters because you have no airline experience and are arguing (very poorly) with a Legacy Airline Pilot.

Actually even though he doesn't have experience, he does have a pretty good grasp of the issue at hand.

And, IMHO, the one with the completely irrational and indefensible "opinion" is the "legacy" pilot. Hoping for plane crashes to change regulations...can you imagine ANYONE posting something like that?

 

[Bajan Hopeful]

I have no idea why someone would want to fly past the age of 60 unless it is for monetary purposes. That is the age where I would go back from where I came from breeze off with my friends from way back and then eventually just die , to each his own I guess. I am young I would just experience God willing if I get so far.

 

[MikeD]

And there is the essential logical failure. No one should have "career expectations". Because pilot careers are closely tied to economic conditions, any assumptions YOU make at any point in time are instantly negated when those conditions change.

The other erroneous assumption pilots make is that EVERYONE will make it to the Legacy airlines. The flying profession is a pyramid. Assuming YOU are going to make it to the top is a very big assumption indeed.

That's very true, probable especially in airlines, but in many professions...military included. Things change, and thats why its always good to either 1. Have a backup profession or trade, or 2. Have a good amount of reserve cash saved up for the proverbial rainy day.

You really need to spend more time around professional pilots. When it comes to issues that effect career progression its "me, Me, ME!"

That applies to mergers, seniority list integration and Age 65.

That's the weird thing about this subject. For all the talk of "walk as one", "power in numbers" and all the other catch phrases of union work; when it comes to this subject and the couple of others listed, it seems ironic that those who are so hard core about it now have no trouble selling their elder "brothers" down the river.

An interesting dichotomy....

 

[Polar742]

Quite wrong. No one had to "sell" the rule change. It was imposed to conform to ICAO standards. No more, no less.

You really need to unclench. As you re-read my posts, you'll see that I've already made that point, and you agreed to it.

However, the concept most certainly was sold as a way to help regain money lost due to the last round of bankruptcies. I feel for those that lost their retirements, however the selling point was a lie.

And there is the essential logical failure. No one should have "career expectations". Because pilot careers are closely tied to economic conditions, any assumptions YOU make at any point in time are instantly negated when those conditions change.

It's easy for you to say that as you always had a fallback job with good pay and benefits that was paid for by the collective via taxes.

The only assumption I made was I'm on my own for planning my retirement, and the senior guys will kick me off the ladder. So far, I'm 2 for 2.

The other erroneous assumption pilots make is that EVERYONE will make it to the Legacy airlines. The flying profession is a pyramid. Assuming YOU are going to make it to the top is a very big assumption indeed.

I'll think this over between the welcome aboard champagne and the steak and glass of Shiraz I'll have on the way over to Hong Kong.

You are way different on here than the wallflower at 9FI at NJC 08.

 

[Velocipede]

However, the concept most certainly was sold as a way to help regain money lost due to the last round of bankruptcies. I feel for those that lost their retirements, however the selling point was a lie.

No one "sold" this to anyone. The only people remotely involved in the decision was Congress. No pilots OR pilot Union had any say in the change. Who, exactly, do you think it was "sold" to?

 

[derg]

No one "sold" this to anyone. The only people remotely involved in the decision was Congress. No pilots OR pilot Union had any say in the change. Who, exactly, do you think it was "sold" to?

Actually, if you read the results of the polling, and even though a majority of us really didn't want it, it reads like "you didn't want it, but you're going to get it and this is why"