Velocipede
New Member
I'm down with General Doug Lee.
Who is retiring soon?/ Age 60/65 rule...
- Thread starter hotice
- Start date
skydog
New Member
Re: Age 60 (65) Rule
I would disagree that it is discrimination. If federal law were passed advocating more frequent medical exams for those over age 60, then it would apply to all within that demographic.
Also, I would daresay that since the medical examiner is putting his license on the line with each medical he issues, he would be within his rights to require more frequent examinations, in the same way that some CFI's take it upon themselves to teach beyond the requirements of the PTS before signing off a student.
I would disagree that it is discrimination. If federal law were passed advocating more frequent medical exams for those over age 60, then it would apply to all within that demographic.
Also, I would daresay that since the medical examiner is putting his license on the line with each medical he issues, he would be within his rights to require more frequent examinations, in the same way that some CFI's take it upon themselves to teach beyond the requirements of the PTS before signing off a student.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
I'd agree; however, his delivery sucks more than a Dyson.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Age 65 was going to be shoved down our throats to comply with ICAO.
I think the beef that is caused was by the campaign in the US. The campaign, again needless since it WAS going to occur, was "We NEED five more years to save for retirement", thus the "I got mine, screw you" perception.
I think the beef that is caused was by the campaign in the US. The campaign, again needless since it WAS going to occur, was "We NEED five more years to save for retirement", thus the "I got mine, screw you" perception.
RPM
Well-Known Member
As an outsider you also don't have to eat the half million dollar+ pay hit that a lot of us got served for breakfast Dec 07.. Its a very easy point to overlook if you happen to be in the left seat at your career airline when the music stops, because it does not significantly effect you financially. You just reap the rewards of more prime income if you choose.. Hell, I would "rationalize" that too. Some of us don't want or have any intention of doing this job until age 65 so we will never make the loss up.. the only way to possibly make it up now is by being forced to work 5 extra years.
10yr regional FO's isn't what we signed up for, We didn't know the "stepping stone" paychecks would become a permanent thing.. A lot of folks would have made a different career choice if they knew this was coming.. (hence the bitching) Yes, we all realize things can change rapidly in this industry and Yes, we have accepted age 65 as the newest kick in the nuts (whether we agree with it or not).. but we are gonna bitch about it for the rest of our careers.. We have every right too.. (It's in the FO's handbook, pg 1)
If the senior guys are gonna hoard all the money/primo schedules while we get "another" 4000 hours SIC time, with an empty bank account followed up with a nice furlough, at least let us bitch and moan in peace
I honestly don't see how if a regional FO complains about it.. it's considered "entitlement" or "GREED"
Yet a Senior Captain (that was planning his entire career to retire at 60) can now choose to hang out in the top Pay Scales for 5 extra years.. and that's somehow NOT considered "GREED" or "entitlement"
What's the difference.. I'm not seeing it.. you can't label one group without labeling the other.
We have every right too.. (It's in the FO's handbook, pg 1)
lol.....It's sometimes said that pilots, like soldiers, could be sitting atop a pile of gold, and still find something to complain about!
If the senior guys are gonna hoard all the money/primo schedules while we get "another" 4000 hours SIC time, with an empty bank account followed up with a nice furlough, at least let us bitch and moan in peace
I honestly don't see how if a regional FO complains about it.. it's considered "entitlement" or "GREED"
Yet a Senior Captain (that was planning his entire career to retire at 60) can now choose to hang out in the top Pay Scales for 5 extra years.. and that's somehow NOT considered "GREED" or "entitlement"
What's the difference.. I'm not seeing it.. the labels seem to fit both groups to me.
One thing is interesting though. It's often said that every ruling that comes out that benefits mainline (but may or may not benefit regional crews), does benefit regionals for when those guys get up the ladder to the mainline. This one seems to be having the complete opposite effect.
n77j
Well-Known Member
NOW-that is a personal attack
. I am afraid my Sharkies don't ever face the Hawks this year in the playoffs- they are blazn hot!BTW-
AGE 65-
1)Are you against
2)for
3)don't give $%%%
I pick number three!
RPM
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by RPM
We have every right too.. (It's in the FO's handbook, pg 1)
Haha.. that actually would make a really good book now that I think about it.. The new FO's handbook, following the lines of a Tucker Max "I hope they serve Beer in Hell" style story.. I already have a perfect title for it. I don't need to ever upgrade now, I'm gonna be rich beeatch..:bandit:Originally Posted by MikeD
lol.....It's sometimes said that pilots, like soldiers, could be sitting atop a pile of gold, and still find something to complain about!
How to get Screwed and Like It
The life and times of a Regional Airline FO
Prologue by: Joe Dick, FO June/2000 Hire.
Book Preview:
Hello, My name is Tyler Dirt and I'm an a**hole regional airline pilot. I get excessively drunk at inappropriate times, complain about every time I get screwed by "the man", I disregard social norms, indulge every whim, ignore the consequences of my actions, mock idiots and posers, sleep with more women than is safe or reasonable, vomit at the sight of my paychecks, occasionally operate the gear lever if 'Massa' allows, and just generally act like a raging jackass because I have no future. But, I do contribute to humanity in one very important way: I share my right seat piloting adventures with the world for all to see before they embark on this insane journey.
Actual reader feedback:
"I am completely baffled as to how you can congratulate yourself for being a pilot, womanizer and a raging drunk, or think anyone cares about an idiot FO like you. Do you really think that flying around exploiting the insecurities of others and getting wasted in random cities is a legitimate thing to offer?"
"Thank you, thank you, thank you—for sharing with us your wonderful tales of operating landing gear, drunken revelry, and for teaching me what it means to be a man, an FO, and for just existing so I know that there is another option in life; I too can say ‘screw the system’ 'screw the senior pilots and management'.. and just be myself, have fun and fly jets for food stamps. My life truly began when I finished reading your stories about traveling the country being a gear beeatch. Now, when faced with a quandary about what course of action I should take, I just ask myself, ‘What Would Tyler Do?’—and I do it, and I am a better man for it."
"I find it truly appalling that there are pilots in the world like you. You are a disgusting, vile, repulsive, repugnant, foul creature. Because of you, I don’t believe in God anymore. No just God would allow a pilot like you to exist."
"I’ll stay with God as my lord, but you are my savior. I just finished reading your brilliant FO stories, and I laughed so hard I almost vomited. Then I cried when I saw your paychecks. I want to bring that kind of joy to and misery to people all in one day like you do. You’re an artist of the highest order and a true humanitarian to boot. I'm in both shock and awe at how much I want to become a regional airline FO like you some day."
"You are the coolest pilot I can even imagine existing. If you slept with my girlfriend, it'd make me love her more."
The life and times of a Regional Airline FO
Prologue by: Joe Dick, FO June/2000 Hire.
Book Preview:
Hello, My name is Tyler Dirt and I'm an a**hole regional airline pilot. I get excessively drunk at inappropriate times, complain about every time I get screwed by "the man", I disregard social norms, indulge every whim, ignore the consequences of my actions, mock idiots and posers, sleep with more women than is safe or reasonable, vomit at the sight of my paychecks, occasionally operate the gear lever if 'Massa' allows, and just generally act like a raging jackass because I have no future. But, I do contribute to humanity in one very important way: I share my right seat piloting adventures with the world for all to see before they embark on this insane journey.
Actual reader feedback:
"I am completely baffled as to how you can congratulate yourself for being a pilot, womanizer and a raging drunk, or think anyone cares about an idiot FO like you. Do you really think that flying around exploiting the insecurities of others and getting wasted in random cities is a legitimate thing to offer?"
"Thank you, thank you, thank you—for sharing with us your wonderful tales of operating landing gear, drunken revelry, and for teaching me what it means to be a man, an FO, and for just existing so I know that there is another option in life; I too can say ‘screw the system’ 'screw the senior pilots and management'.. and just be myself, have fun and fly jets for food stamps. My life truly began when I finished reading your stories about traveling the country being a gear beeatch. Now, when faced with a quandary about what course of action I should take, I just ask myself, ‘What Would Tyler Do?’—and I do it, and I am a better man for it."
"I find it truly appalling that there are pilots in the world like you. You are a disgusting, vile, repulsive, repugnant, foul creature. Because of you, I don’t believe in God anymore. No just God would allow a pilot like you to exist."
"I’ll stay with God as my lord, but you are my savior. I just finished reading your brilliant FO stories, and I laughed so hard I almost vomited. Then I cried when I saw your paychecks. I want to bring that kind of joy to and misery to people all in one day like you do. You’re an artist of the highest order and a true humanitarian to boot. I'm in both shock and awe at how much I want to become a regional airline FO like you some day."
"You are the coolest pilot I can even imagine existing. If you slept with my girlfriend, it'd make me love her more."
- Disclaimer: ideas above stolen from Tucker Max stories and is completely FICTION as far as any drinking and flying OF COURSE.:buck:
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
:rotfl:I am so glad that you did not put a little "TM" on that one because I am going to have to use it.
And to the point Hacker made, yeah I agree that Velo makes a great argument; very rational and sensible. One that I competely agree with, for whatever that is worth given my standing in this world. Keeping it civil would make it even stronger though and attract more people to his case.
Velocipede
New Member
YES!
Again, very true. Equally needless was all the finger pointing and the "you've got 3 wives" B.S. that dominated the other side of the "debate". The fact of the matter was that airline management WAS robbing guys of their retirements (happened to my Dad!) by using the bankruptcy court to steal pensions that they had PROMISED to pay...and that many pilots considered deferred income.
But, you assume too much.
1. That you're even good enough to get hired by any airline except a regional. Face facts, you may just be a career regional pilot regardless of how many job openings there are at the majors.
2. That there would NEVER be a contraction in the airline industry that doomed you to regional status forever.
3. That you even survived long enough to get a major airline interview.
4. That you managed to retain 1st class medical status long enough to get into the left seat of any airliner, much less one at a major airline.
The point is, there are a LOT of rocks in the road to the left seat of a 777. Very few (relatively) make it. Age 65 isn't the only thing in the way.
But what YOU don't realize is that Age 65 IS effecting me significantly financially. I don't have the seniority to bid lines that afford me the kind of time off that allows me to participate in our time and a half program. I could be earning $30-$50K MORE a year if I could hold that kind of schedule. However, that has receded at least 5 years into the future.
You just don't hear me biatching about it, because THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT. As a very wise friend of mine likes to say, "IT IS WHAT IT IS."
But, its not a loss if you never had it. Revisit all those reasons YOU may never make it to the left seat of a 777. I never will. And, believe me that was my career goal when I left the Navy.
Perhaps your "career expectations" were just that...expectations.
Then you either didn't do your homework or you have a hopelessy Pollyanna view of the airline industry. Airline flying has always been cyclical. And pilot salaries have always be in flux.
So who is to blame if YOU didn't realize those facts?
I guess its true...a bitching pilot is a happy pilot. You must be ecstatic! :laff:
If the senior guys are gonna hoard all the money/primo schedules while we get "another" 4000 hours SIC time, with an empty bank account followed up with a nice furlough, at least let us bitch and moan in peace
Listen, mate. I did my 11.5 years of time in the Navy trying to get the qualifications to get a major airline job. I have over 5200 hours of MILITARY flight time, a huge number by the standards of what the average pilot was flying in the '80s. Quals are flexible too. Just last year, the regionals were hiring guys with 500/50 if you remember.
But, if the moaning about how "unfair" life is makes you feel better, have at it. Just don't expect much sympathy from those of us who have put in time doing 11 month cruises, fought wars in the desert or suffered 18 month unaccompanied tours to get where we are.
Regional F/O "dues" don't begin to match military "dues".
Wait a minute. YOU said:
If the senior guys are gonna hoard all the money/primo schedules while we get "another" 4000 hours SIC time, with an empty bank account followed up with a nice furlough, at least let us bitch and moan in peace
...so YOU are the one who seems overly concerned with pay rates and schedules reflected by YOUR frustration with your inability to upgrade. Sounds pretty much like the textbook definition of greed to me.
The difference is that WE were planning on leaving at 60 due to regulatory restrictions. The law changed. Did that create a windfall for some guys? Sure it did. Do they still retain the right to retire at 60 (or 55 or 45)? Sure they do. Just the same as YOU do. IF you make it to the left seat of a major airline. Of course, as I already pointed out, that assumes a fact not in evidence (as the lawyers like to say).
I guess you're assuming I'm trying to convince someone of something. I just point out the cold, hard facts. Some people have their heads buried in a sand dune of denial.
Sorry if the truth hurts, but my experience as a parent, military officer and airline captain has taught me that sometimes its better to give it to them straight than to sugar coat it.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
You are the 348,729th person to express this argument on the internet...and, sorry, still not buying it.
I know a little bit about seniority and progression being in the military. We have promotions and assignment and all kinds of things based on "rules" that can change in an instant. What is true today may not be true tomorrow. Those rules effect if and when you get promoted, which has a direct effect on bottom line both now and in the long run (the difference in retirement pay between a Captain, a Major, and a Lt Col over the course of 30 or 40 years is A LOT).
Guess what...I had "expectations" about when I thought things were going to happen, or what I had to do in order to get those promotions. Sometimes people above me make decisions that change those rules.
That's how it is...exactly as Velo said. Life sucks...things change and you may or may not have any ability to effect that change. Somebody is not "robbing" you of anything...there was never anything you HAD to start with. You might have THOUGHT you did...but you didn't.
So, sorry. Still comes off like sour grapes, no matter how many times guys post that spiel.
RPM
Well-Known Member
good enough lol.. like its some sort of great difficult accomplishment when you have the qualifications and the contacts and things are moving, I did have a job at AA but that is dead and gone now.
but I'll agree some people will be career regional pilots, I know lots of them..
I understand that completely.. all I'm saying is age 65 is one of them..
I understand it effects you guys as well, just not nearly as much. There is a HUGE difference between going from 130K to 160K vs. going from 45K to even 90K.. It definitely sucks both ways for both sides.. but there IS a difference.
Regardless if I make it to a 777, Its effecting me and everyone around me NOW at my current Airline and it is a loss. I have accepted this may very well be a possible career path now.. I don't know if I ever want to be at the bottom of a list again. If it wasn't for age 65 and having the music stop I could at least very likely be sitting in the left seat making 100k vs 45K on my next W2. NONE of our Captains are leaving at 60 voluntarily now and we have a lot of senior pilots at my airline.. they can't afford to go.. 401k's wiped out and plenty of other factors. Again, I'm not blaming anyone for staying, it IS there choice now.
We did realize thats how the Airline industry was.. but ALL IM SAYING is age 65 wasn't part of it before.. there isn't really any way to do homework on something that wasn't much talked about in 2002..
yes I am.. life is good, even though I'm flat broke I manage to always have a good time.
This is the part I like.. you can come down on others but when it comes down to it, you are no different. It is blatently obvious YOU feel like you're better than us because you have that magical military time.. and you paid your dues more than we did..
Who ever said I got hired with 500/50hrs.. that is a recent development as of last year.. I am not one of those that came straight from flight school.. I spent time instructing in multi-engine aircraft, flying a Baron/Chiefton around the country in bad weather at night, King Air pilot, right seat Hawker800, instructing competition aerobatics, doing transition training for Pitts aircraft, unusual/upset attittudes training.. giving backcountry mountain training etc.. Not like any of this matters anyway because it has nothing to do with age 65.
Been there, done that, have the T-shirt and the scars to prove it.. I worked as a contract commercial diver with the Navy Divers for over 4 years, in some of the nastiest places on the planet, I watched many friends get killed and mamed every year.. I have my months of sea time.. again, not that it matters.
There it is again.. more of the condescending your better than us military attitude.. Its ok, I'm used to it, its a notorious attitude at AA..
It was your choice to go that route.. does it make you any better than the rest of us taking a different path.. no. But i never said a word about paying dues anyway.. That always gets thrown out by the older guys that "had it 10x harder than us and walked uphill both ways in the snow everyday" All I'm saying is it killed the career progression.. I'm pretty sure thats basically all I ever said.. that and I don't agree with the medical standards..
From like the 3rd post in this thread, Someone asked why its such a big deal to us.. Thats why it a big deal to everyone. I know what the Facts are, I really don't care to argue about it because its pointless.. Who knows, Your probably actually a decent guy in person.
Of course Im concerned with my pay and upgrade, everyone here is.. I NEVER said I wasn't greedy in that respect.. Anyone who says otherwise would be lying. But you can't say the Senior Captains aren't being greedy as well. They ARE.. and they are entitled too, just as we are entitled to complain about it.. its the new law. I can't fault them for it, and I would never tell some Captain he needs to retire, it's his choice.. but I can sure say why we aren't happy about it.
There is a difference between facts and 'rationalizing' things.. this topic wen't off the facts in about 2 seconds.. as it always does.
RPM
Well-Known Member
doesn't really make any difference to me if you buy it or not.
we did have it.. we had a seat that would belong to FO's before DEC/07 on paper, by contractual upgrade language, according to the senority list with the mandatory retirement age of 60.. those were GUARANTEED positions at the time (barring any downsizing) it wasn't just an expectation, it was FACT, unlike your military career progression ours is based strictly 100% on senority and hard #'s.. those many retirements did not happen when the law changed.. therefor it did directly affect us.
Btw- I spent 2 summers over at Lakenheath 14 years ago, I lived right next to Milldenhall..
Velocipede
New Member
Hacker,
See how the "entitlement" mind works? " ...those were GUARANTEED positions at the time..."
Unfortunately, there are NO guarantees in life, much less the airline business.
See how the "entitlement" mind works? " ...those were GUARANTEED positions at the time..."
Unfortunately, there are NO guarantees in life, much less the airline business.
Not even the jobs that we have RIGHT NOW are guaranteed to be here tomorrow.
No sense getting panties wadded over stuff we have NO control over.
Smile. Be Happy!
Or go read this: http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/85223-perspectives-life-such.html
No sense getting panties wadded over stuff we have NO control over.
Smile. Be Happy!
Or go read this: http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/85223-perspectives-life-such.html
RPM
Well-Known Member
Why do you keep mentioning 'entitlement' after your paying dues in the military speech vs new FO's that have it easy.. it's NO different, the same as the 'Greed' accusation is NO different on the senior end.. You keep contradicting yourself Again for the last time.. I'm not trying to argue about industry changes and all the other factors that screw us on a daily basis.. Just AGE 65; All I am saying is it negatively impacted us in the right seat bigtime. That is a fact. You can make it cold and hard if you want.. Some of the other points are valid, some are not iMO.. doesn't really matter now because anyway.. we all have to live with it now and 99% of the current regional FO's are gonna be disgruntled about it for life for obvious reasons, you can't change that.. especially those coming from an outside perspective when you don't live with it.
I think ALL of us are guilty of this at times, :buck: myself included:
Confirmation bias
When you believe something, you tend to prefer facts that confirm your belief, but ignore or rationalize anything that contradicts it. The smarter you are, the better you are at rationalizing whatever you want to believe.
Again for the last time.. I'm not trying to argue about industry changes and all the other factors that screw us on a daily basis.. Just AGE 65; All I am saying is it negatively impacted us in the right seat bigtime. That is a fact. You can make it cold and hard if you want.. Some of the other points are valid, some are not iMO.. doesn't really matter now because anyway.. we all have to live with it now and 99% of the current regional FO's are gonna be disgruntled about it for life for obvious reasons, you can't change that.. especially those coming from an outside perspective when you don't live with it.I think ALL of us are guilty of this at times, :buck: myself included:
Confirmation bias
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons."
—Michael Shermer, Sept. 2002 Scientific American
When you believe something, you tend to prefer facts that confirm your belief, but ignore or rationalize anything that contradicts it. The smarter you are, the better you are at rationalizing whatever you want to believe.
Velocipede
New Member
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it irritates the pig." - Velocipede