Aerobatics in Training Aircraft

USMCmech said:
Probably should.

The thing about aerobatic manuvers is that the stress they put on the airframe goes up on a curve. Light acro barely flexes anything. G loads stay well within the safety margins. However if it gets just a little away from you, Snap! You could go from 2.2 to 13 VERY quickly if you screw up a manuver.
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a former pilot at a company i know of (vague enough?) BRAGGED a few times about doing aileron rolls in company aircraft...

he had to pay out of pocket to have the plane inspected/overhauled... and then was fired.

and thats exactly how it should be.

do acro in acro planes. its fun. and safe.
 
granlistillo said:
If you aren't doing it in a sukhoi, pitts or a extra I doubt you had the performance to do a true snap roll... But hey, I had it demo'd in a bonaza with a PT6... With a two tour F-14 pilot at the controls.
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ill spare all the acro-nerd talk. but anyone want some insight into acro, im happy to share my admittedly small level of expertise :-)
 
granlistillo said:
A recurrent theme with these bozos. "Snap roll" did he actually say that?
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Actually, he didn't know what it was called. He basically said "can we try this maneuver where we start in S & L and abruptly go full aft elevator and full rudder deflection, and the plane rolls around" I've done snap rolls in an Extra 300, so I think I know what they are, and that I was in an airplane that was approved for them. :) You are right, there are lots of seemingly educated people who get all the different types of rolls mixed up.
 
flyinguitar said:
I am regularly impressed by the many hazardous attitudes that can be found among instructors at my school (mostly anti-authority and macho). Just a couple weeks ago we had an instructor out shooting approaches with a student in 1/8SM and 001 VV. No we are not certified for CATIII approaches in our warriors! They just ducked under and got in anyway, and management didn't say a word.
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That's the problem with so many of these issues with aerobatics, going below mins, whatever else there might be...it's a cultural thing.

Every flight school has a culture, like it or not. Some are overly conservative, some are overly aggressive, and a lot are in the middle.

When I look back at my own training, I tend to share similar attitudes and habits with the people who either trained me, or who I hung out with as a low time pilot. It takes a lot of effort to "break the mold" so to speak and set a new trend.

I'm not sure what should be done with poor safety cultures to improve things, but it's definitely something I've observed over the years. A change in management personnel is an obvious solution (I saw this work very well for a college flight program), but that's easier said than done at most places. I think hiring instructors from *outside* a flight program can also work well to prevent bad habits from getting passed down through generations at an individual school, but it can have negative effects in other areas.
 
TXaviator said:
ill spare all the acro-nerd talk. but anyone want some insight into acro, im happy to share my admittedly small level of expertise :-)
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Not sure about acro, but I had 9 hrs of AERO about 20 yrs ago. I am not an expert, but I know enough to know my limitations. Notwithstanding the entrys, I think you could hose yourself on the recoverys without a bubble canopy, unless you were pretty sure of your attitude.
 
flyinguitar said:
there are lots of seemingly educated people who get all the different types of rolls mixed up.
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YES. YEAH THAT! THIS!!


actually in all my aerobatic flying, ive never even seen anyone do a BARREL ROLL.

its not a competition maneuver and really has no purpose. (neither is an aileron roll for that matter!)
 
jrh said:
I'm not sure what should be done with poor safety cultures
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The cultures reflect the attitudes of those in charge and the only solution is to get rid of them. That's often difficult, because, well, they're in charge.
 
granlistillo said:
Not sure about acro, but I had 9 hrs of AERO about 20 yrs ago. I am not an expert, but I know enough to know my limitations. Notwithstanding the entrys, I think you could hose yourself on the recoverys without a bubble canopy, unless you were pretty sure of your attitude.
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guilty. i know its aerobatics and HATE when people call it ACRObatics... but something about calling it acro for short (AKRO!!!) just rolls better than "yeah i fly aero..." ....what?

bubble canopies are cool and all, but i dont think recovering a decathlon from an inverted spin/crossover spin/whatever bungled maneuver is really all that hard. it basically recovers itself!
 
granlistillo said:
Yes, But they do happen.

Oh, and Douglass, your "latte- friggin- dah" attitude on this thread is disconcerting too. You are not the most experience stick on this board, either.
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Yes, BUT what? If you are going to try and correct my statements make sure you say something different than I do.
Rare means they do happen, infrequently.

If you think I have that attitude towards acro in non-acro training aircraft, you are wrong.
If you want to come after my personal "stick experience" when I didn't reference it or use it to make a point, go right ahead winner.
 
tgrayson said:
Well, Bill Kershner seemed to think it was one, and it was his airplane I was doing it in.
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Hey, don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge. You seem to be about the only one around here who understands airflow over the horizontal stab to maintain elevator effectiveness to keep a cessna in a steady state spin without entering a spiral...

I've Read B Kershner's books since I was a solo student nearly 25 years ago (in a 150 aerobat...) No doubt it was a snap roll of sorts, but to really do one, ala patty wagstaff... You would be better off in one of those eastern european jobs with a lot of power, gyroscopic torque and a very effective elevator.

Either way, my point is trying to do one in a GA airplane is stupid. And most guys that talk smack about it, don't have a clue what they are talking about.
 
jrh said:
That's the problem with so many of these issues with aerobatics, going below mins, whatever else there might be...it's a cultural thing.

Every flight school has a culture, like it or not. Some are overly conservative, some are overly aggressive, and a lot are in the middle.
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I teach guys pretty liberally, in the sense that you can darn near do anything in an airplane; BUT EVERYTHING comes with a price. Some things may be very expensive (ex- potential cost your life), others may be not so much so (ex- IFR WX that may be challenging, but you're properly certificated for, you've thoroughly checked, and have planned for). This is the whole concept of judgement. For the new guys, you don't have much money in your wallet, hence you can't afford to be doing many things beyond conservative. As you gain experience, you gain proverbial money in that wallet and will have a better idea of what prices you can personally afford for doing certain things, or pushing the envelope (while staying legal of course).
 
TXaviator said:
a former pilot at a company i know of (vague enough?) BRAGGED a few times about doing aileron rolls in company aircraft...

he had to pay out of pocket to have the plane inspected/overhauled... and then was fired.

and thats exactly how it should be.

do acro in acro planes. its fun. and safe.
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Texas pilot,

That is exactly how it should be. And please after my unfair flaming of you last year, pay no attention to me if I diss on ya. I must have been bitter about the outcome of red river shootout.;)
 
tgrayson said:
If you're going to into the yellow arc, duh.

Rather, slow to below maneuvering speed, yank the yoke back and stomp the left rudder at the same time, and she'll roll around quite nicely. And you won't be able to pull the wings off.
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One other point. A snap roll is the same aerodynamic condition as a spin, (stall with a big yaw rate or one wing in a deep stall an the other stalled but producing a little lift initially)but along a horizontal flight path. So to do one like the airshows you need a little speed...
 
Douglas said:
It is none of my business, but I encourage you to have polite sit down with that instructor.
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:yeahthat: Nobody needs to be doing that, much less teaching their students to do that crap.
 
granlistillo said:
So to do one like the airshows you need a little speed...
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You need to be below maneuvering speed if you're going to pull full aft yoke. For an Aerobat, even 100 knots is getting too close to the load factor limit. As I recall, it worked just fine, and we did it just the way Patty does. It was a real deal snap roll.
 
flyinguitar said:
Just a couple weeks ago we had an instructor out shooting approaches with a student in 1/8SM and 001 VV.
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Just a comment,

There is nothing illeagel about a pt 91 flight atempting an approach in those conditions. As long as you maintain MDA, you will be safely above any obstacles. I would consider it a waste of time, since I could expect to go missed. However no FARs would be broken.

OTOH, "Ducking under" below MDA is both illeagel AND stupid. If I shoot an approach and don't see the runway by the MAP, I'm headed to my alternate.

I also wouldn't ever plan on doing so with a student.
 
It was reassuring to hear that the pilot was "A very good pilot." It is unbelievable what people will do to kill other people.
 
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