Logging time question

ASpilot2be

Qbicle seat warmer
I know, another one of these threads:rolleyes: I searched and couldnt find a clear answer.

I am going through and putting my times into Logbook Pro, and noticed that my instructor had put PIC time for me, and flight training received for the same flight.

My understanding is if the Instructor signs the logbook for the particular flight, I cant receive PIC right? And all solo time in PIC right?

Thanks.
 
If you are a student pilot, you cannot log PIC unless you are solo.

If you are a private pilot or greater, you can log PIC when you are with an instructor.
 
If you are a student pilot, you cannot log PIC unless you are solo.

If you are a private pilot or greater, you can log PIC when you are with an instructor.

Assuming you are rated for that Category and Class.
§ 61.51

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.


The key here is the difference between acting and logging PIC. For example, whilst working on your IR you and your instructor can file and fly an IFR flight plan, in IMC, and the whole time you can log PIC, even though the CFII is actually acting CFI. Same deal with logging PIC in a complex, high performance or tailwheel, without requisite endorsements.


Once you have your private, and you are working on additional ratings it is a good idea to actually establish with the CFI who is actually PIC for the flight.
 
Yes you can :)

Even in actual IFR with an instructor on board if you don't have your instrument rating.
 
The answers you received are correct but following that advise may cause you a lot of headache in the future.

14 CFR 61.51 is controlling and starts with the following:
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

What that means is that the rules that follow tell you how to log time toward the requirements of earning a certificate, rating or flight review and for currency. If you are going to use the time for those purposes then that's how you log it.

When you apply for jobs each employer will have his own definitions for the time breakdowns that he wants and almost universally they will define PIC time as the time that you were responsible for the airplane. If you do your logbook per 61.51 it can be quite time consuming to fill out job applications, each with slightly different criteria for how they want the PIC broken down.

The way to address this is to keep a separate "part 61.51 PIC" column in your paper logbook, or a separate "part 61.51 PIC" field in your electronic logbook. This will let you log the PIC time when you're low time but easily exclude it later on when you're filling out those flight time grids on applications.

Once you get to the CPL level the part 61.51 PIC will be inconsequential and you'll likely stop logging it as you're no longer building time to meet the requirements for ratings.

Short answer: Log part 61.51 PIC separately so that you can easily exclude it when filling out applications later.
 
What that means is that the rules that follow tell you how to log time toward the requirements of earning a certificate, rating or flight review and for currency. If you are going to use the time for those purposes then that's how you log it.

61.51 is the only regulation that tells you how to log PIC. I am not sure why you would need a separate column for it. As you stated, each employer is going to define the way they want it anyways. You can't preemptively log based on what your future employer may or may not want to see.
 
You can't preemptively log based on what your future employer may or may not want to see.
:yeahthat:
Log IAW 61.51 and keep an electronic log that will make it possible to sort out whatever inane categories your future employer decides they want.
 
record PIC and Solo hrs in seperate columns. Any flight (beyond student) you are sole manipulator (and rated cat/class) but under instruction Log as PIC.
If sole occupent, flying with friends etc (basically not paying the guy next to you to sit there!), log as PIC and Solo.

JAA (Euro) CPL license require 100 P1 hours - basically 100 hrs solo (not just PIC), so it's good to differentiate.
 
record PIC and Solo hrs in seperate columns. Any flight (beyond student) you are sole manipulator (and rated cat/class) but under instruction Log as PIC.
If sole occupent, flying with friends etc (basically not paying the guy next to you to sit there!), log as PIC and Solo.

JAA (Euro) CPL license require 100 P1 hours - basically 100 hrs solo (not just PIC), so it's good to differentiate.

In my opinion, this is not a particularly good idea as there are a number of solo requirements for the commercial license, having to go through your log to work out whether the flights you logged as solo were actually solo, or if your wife was sitting there next you would be a hassle. In my opinion, and this is what I do, you should always log in accordance with 61.51, as this is the only concrete method defined; sole occupant - solo and pic, sole manipulator and rated - pic. If you have any plans to get your ATP there is a 500 hour PIC requirement, you want to count as much PIC as you can, legally.

Does this mean that a whole bunch of Southwest FOs could be logging PIC whenever they are sole manipulator? Yep. My intention is to stop logging sole manipulator PIC once I reach the magic 500 and there after only log PIC for those flights I'm actually signing for.

Has there ever been a clarification or interpretation of the phrase in 61.51 "has priviledges"?
 
So all flights post solo are PIC even if the instructor is still in the aircraft because I have my student pilot certificate?

Maybe I will just run upto flight ops and ask. I understand things better when talking face to face.:)
 
So all flights post solo are PIC even if the instructor is still in the aircraft because I have my student pilot certificate?

Maybe I will just run upto flight ops and ask. I understand things better when talking face to face.:)

No, as a student only PIC time is Solo.
 
61.51(e) requires you to be a Sport, Recreational, Private or Commercial Pilot to log pic as the sole manipulator, interestingly it makes no mention of ATPs.

I should add that my previous post was slightly in error, ATP only requires 250 hours of pic not 500
 
In my opinion, this is not a particularly good idea as there are a number of solo requirements for the commercial license, having to go through your log to work out whether the flights you logged as solo were actually solo, or if your wife was sitting there next you would be a hassle. In my opinion, and this is what I do, you should always log in accordance with 61.51, as this is the only concrete method defined; sole occupant - solo and pic, sole manipulator and rated - pic. If you have any plans to get your ATP there is a 500 hour PIC requirement, you want to count as much PIC as you can, legally.

Does this mean that a whole bunch of Southwest FOs could be logging PIC whenever they are sole manipulator? Yep. My intention is to stop logging sole manipulator PIC once I reach the magic 500 and there after only log PIC for those flights I'm actually signing for.

Has there ever been a clarification or interpretation of the phrase in 61.51 "has priviledges"?


Thanks for the heads up on the solo time - after looking at the FARs it's clear it's sole occupent only (as if the word "solo" wasn't obvious enough). Just as well not many people have flown with me won't take much to correct!
 
interestingly it makes no mention of ATPs.

An ATP doesn't give up any rights he held as a Commercial pilot, so he can still log sole manipulator time; he just has additional rights on logging time as denoted in this section.
 
Thanks for the heads up on the solo time - after looking at the FARs it's clear it's sole occupent only (as if the word "solo" wasn't obvious enough). Just as well not many people have flown with me won't take much to correct!

No worries.

At the time I found it a little frustrating that none of my long cross countries with non-pilot friends would count towards the solo requirements for the commercial, but there you go. It at least afforded me the opportunity to visit the wonderful town of Plainview, TX
 
An ATP doesn't give up any rights he held as a Commercial pilot, so he can still log sole manipulator time; he just has additional rights on logging time as denoted in this section.

Interesting, thanks.

Perhaps you are the man to answer my "has priviledges" question, Taylor.
 
61.51(d) Logging of solo flight time

a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft

Unfortunately, I'm doing my commercial right now and reading through the Jepp syllabus it doesn't say anything about the 'long solo x-country' I've heard about.

Now as I dig further into the FAR/AIM I go to appendix D of part 141 (which is what I'm doing my training under...141) and it states that I have to log 10 hours solo x-country time, one flight must be 150 NM straight line, and then one with 3 stops of 250 NM. The syllabus doesn't call for these long trips, however, the FAR does.

It doesn't make any sense to me to fly 250 NM away by myself and not be able to bring along the wife or a friend even if they have no idea how to fly the airplane. That's a pretty boring flight!

Please anybody correct me if I'm wrong because I would love to bring someone along with me. But as I understand it...I can't.
 
Perhaps you are the man to answer my "has priviledges" question

That language was inserted into 61.51(e)(1)(i) when the Sport Pilot stuff was added (2005?), so I infer that it applies only to those with that certificate. I asked the FAA to include a definition in 61.1 of what "has privileges" means so no one is inclined to apply it to other endorsements such as complex, etc. We'll see if that turns up in the upcoming new Part 61.
 
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