Pitch. Power. Trim.

Approach Control

Approach Control

New Member
Controlling the Aircraft:

Been doing some reading and came across the phrase - pitch/power/trim.

Each time, it had to do with basic control of the aircraft in normal phases of flight. However, it struck me that different aircraft will have different values for pitch/power/trim, given a specific flight attitude or phase.

For example: I would expect pitch/power/trim to be different for a 747 in after take-off climb phase, than a 172 during its after take-off climb phase.

So, my question is this: Would I be stepping too far out in front of my Instructor, if I asked him/her to provide me with pitch/power/trim settings for all phases of normal flight in the aircraft that he/she is giving me instruction? [take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing]

I was thinking that I could put these on a small card, laminate the card and then attach it somewhere to my knee-board, so that each time my IP asks me to do something with the aircraft, I'll at least know immediately how to configure the pitch/power/trim in order to get into the flight attitude requested by my IP.

At least this way [I theorize], the basic flight segments [T/O, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing] can be reduced to flying by the numbers, without a whole lot of time and energy spent trying to 'remember' the how's and why's.

1) Does that make any sense? (if not, why not)

2) Would my IP think that I'm trying to rush him/her into teaching too far ahead in their syllabus?

It would seem to me that my flight training would roll a lot smoother if I knew these values right from the outset for the aircraft that I'm training with - regardless of what that aircraft might be, no?

If so, how do I ask for this data, without seeming too forward or too presumptuous? I can't just go up and experiment with it on my own [LOL] until I discover these values for myself.

Thanks all.
 
You should generally know the pitch and power setting for every phase of flight.

You can ask your instructor this it won't seem odd.

I always teach my students pitch, power, and trim when changing phases of flight.

climbing or descending to a new altitude - when within 50 feet of altitude PITCH for level, POWER to 2,300 - 2,500 (depending on manuevering or just cruising), and finally TRIM the airplane.

I teach the trim as being the autopilot of the airplane. The trim is always changing per phase of flight. So there is never a definite answer of how much trim is needed. You should be able to trim the airplane so that you can fly hands off without loosing altitude. I see a lot of people who never use trim. This is going to make things A LOT harder.

When initiating a climb it's PITCH to horizon, POWER full, and TRIM as needed.

When initiating a descent its PITCH down, POWER to 2,000, and TRIM as needed. Adjust pitch to establish a 500 fpm descent. (Usually gives you about 100kts.) Anything more and you will feel your ears building pressure and you hear the increase in pressures on the airframe.

I try to teach my students to "be at one with the airplane". Fly the airplane by feel. Listen to the changes in the sound of the engine and eventually you will be able to pull the power back to 2,300-2,500 without staring at the RPM gauge.

PITCH POWER TRIM... I probably say it a million times in the beginning of training.
 
Approach Control said:
1) Does that make any sense? (if not, why not)
Click to expand...

Not really, and here's why: So much of flying, especially when first beginning, is developing a feel for the aircraft rather than memorizing specific numbers. There is no pitch "setting" for a light plane...the pitch will vary quite noticeably for each phase of flight depending on the weight of the aircraft, center of gravity, altitude, and outside air temperature. For instance, an empty Cessna 182 on a cold day will literally act like a different plane than the same plane loaded full of skydivers on a hot day. Different pitch attitudes, different stability characteristics, etc. A pilot has to learn how to feel when the aircraft is approaching a stall or going too fast.

When it comes to power settings, there are power settings for light planes, but again, the specifics aren't important at this stage. For takeoff and climb you use full power. For cruise you use a little less than full power. For descent, you reduce the power. Reduce it a little and you'll descend slowly. Reduce it a lot and you'll descend quickly. Understanding the *relationship* between your power setting and rate of climb/descent, and learning how to adjust a climb/descent through feel is much more important than specific values.

With trim, as has already been stated, trim is purely feel. It's simply a way of adjusting the control pressures so you don't have to be constantly pushing or pulling on a control to keep the plane going where you want it to go.

I know you're planning to transition in to more advanced aircraft in the future and I'm assuming you've been reading about flying by the numbers, having settings for everything, etc.

As a general rule, the larger and heavier the plane, the more "by the numbers" it must be flown because they have more momentum. If they get going too fast or too slow, the problem can't be remedied quickly (like trying to stop or speed up a freight train), so it's important to control the plane within tight limits from the start and plan further in to the future. Also, because of their mass, it is more difficult to feel the subtleties of what is happening with the plane, therefore gauges and specific values for things must be used. However, like a freight train, larger aircraft are generally much more stable. They don't get knocked around in wind and turbulence, so a pilot is able to "set" it in a particular configuration and it will stick there easier.

On the other end of the spectrum, very light aircraft, like most training aircraft, are inherently less stable and more responsive. It's like driving a compact car versus a semi truck. They get bumped around more, change speeds more readily, etc. This can be both good and bad. Because of this, trying to fly them by the numbers is not always the most practical or best approach. It's frustrating to try to hold everything constant when everything shifts around so easily. For example, when approaching to land in a light plane, bumps of turbulence might momentarily stall the plane, then recover, then stall, and so on. If a pilot gets caught up in trying to fly a certain speed or pitch attitude, they might miss what's really important, the fact that they're close to flying at the critical angle of attack, which can easily be noticed and reacted to through feel.


This is one of those things that's hard to explain through writing, but I think you'll see once you get experience in both light and heavy aircraft.

Approach Control said:
2) Would my IP think that I'm trying to rush him/her into teaching too far ahead in their syllabus?
Click to expand...

No, if you have a good instructor, they'll say, the more questions, the better. I wish everybody was as focused as you seem to be. Now, there might be times when the instructor will have to say, "I'll cover that later in your training and I can't explain now because we haven't gone over enough for you to understand the answer yet," but that's a good problem to have.

It's like an 8th grader asking about calculus. There's no good way to explain calculus to an 8th grader who hasn't even gone through algebra yet. It's not worth even trying to jump ahead to calculus until the 8th grader has a better understanding of math. But it's good that the 8th grader is ambitious enough to plan on learning calculus.
 
Approach Control said:
So, my question is this: Would I be stepping too far out in front of my Instructor, if I asked him/her to provide me with pitch/power/trim settings for all phases of normal flight in the aircraft that he/she is giving me instruction? [take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing]

I was thinking that I could put these on a small card, laminate the card and then attach it somewhere to my knee-board, so that each time my IP asks me to do something with the aircraft, I'll at least know immediately how to configure the pitch/power/trim in order to get into the flight attitude requested by my IP.

At least this way [I theorize], the basic flight segments [T/O, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing] can be reduced to flying by the numbers, without a whole lot of time and energy spent trying to 'remember' the how's and why's.

1) Does that make any sense? (if not, why not)
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any problem with you learning what pitch an power settings work from the very earliest lessons. I'm willing to bet that even most "seat of the pants" instructors will have you reduce power to 1500-1600 RPM abeam the touchdown point and pitch for a certain airspeed to start the landing descent. I do it with climbs and descents also. For example, I tell my students early on that while we will probably want to just put the nose down when descending on a cross country, we are going to do all our normal descents locally at a certain airspeed and descent rate, so they can learn control.

But...

(a) You should be learning what they are as a natural result of your instruction, without being spoon fed by your instructor. It's a skill that you will carry over to other aircraft.

(b) A laminated card or chart works out very nicely for pilots flying complex aircraft on instruments where workload is high and precision is a must, but it's overkill for basic visual flight in a simple single. These are normal, run of the mill, every day flight maneuvers. You might as well have a laminated card to tell you how to make a left turn in your car.

(c) There's a balance between too much sensory flight (aka seat of the pants) and too much flight by numbers. The two work with each other. Both visual and instrument flight involve cross-referencing one against the other. The degrees vary between visual and instrument flight but it's there. At this point, you are trying to develop the sensory - what does the change from level cruise at 110 kts to a descent at 90 kts and 500 fpm feel like, sound like, look like out the window - and use the instruments to confirm what your senses are telling you. There's a good chance of not developing that skill if you bypass it in a strict pitch-power-trim analysis.
 
Agree with everything said so far..

Don't jump too far ahead. Learning the pitch and power will give you a "sight picture" you will want (NEED) to know what that looks like on your own, there will be times when looking at a card will not be safe or practicle.

Now, with that said, when you move into a complex airplane, knowing the RPM and manifold pressure to give you a certain performance will be important but it will also be second nature. From there you will have mastered it to the point where you can "put" the airplane where you want it.
 
At this point you should be learning to fly VFR. The primary instrument for pitch while flying VFR is... the horizon. The real one, not the artificial one. With this being the case, you should have some ball park power settings for different phases of flight- say 2400 RPM for cruise; 2300 RPM for downwind, then carb heat on (this will reduce your RPM another 100); as Mark wrote, about 1700 abeam the numbers. Whatever the numbers are for your airplane (all recip engine airplanes have about the same numbers), your CFI will/should give them to you. Now these are ball park numbers. You don't fixate on your RPM gauge while setting them... you set them by feel and sound, then cross reference your RPM and what the setting is doing for you. Strong winds? You may need more power on your approach. Light winds? Maybe less.
Once your power is set, set your pitch by looking outside at the horizon. Trim. Then cross check your pitch with your airspeed indicator and/or your VSI.
Frankly, by the time you are ready to solo you should be able to fly traffic patterns without referencing your instruments. I actually have my pre-solo students fly traffic patterns with all instruments covered. I have commercial students fly commercial maneuvers with all the instruments covered up. This is callled... stick and rudder flying. This is what you should be working on at this point.
 
I think it's a decent idea, with one exception-the pitch attitudes should be by reference to something outside the airplane, i.e., in the 172s that I fly, pretty much any day, any weight, if I put the top of the cowling on the horizon, that gives me a Vy climb. If I set the glareshield one handswidth below the horizon and use 2200 RPM, I will be pretty close to level cruise, and so on.
 
JRH said what I was going to say, especially...

jrh;1093576 [B said:
When it comes to power settings, there are power settings for light planes, but again, the specifics aren't important at this stage. For takeoff and climb you use full power. For cruise you use a little less than full power. For descent, you reduce the power. Reduce it a little and you'll descend slowly. Reduce it a lot and you'll descend quickly. Understanding the *relationship* between your power setting and rate of climb/descent, and learning how to adjust a climb/descent through feel is much more important than specific values.[/B]
Click to expand...

When coming back from the practice area, you will rarely be at the same altitude/airspeed when you decide to start your descent, which make feel and the ability to change, primary.
 
Blackhawk said:
At this point you should be learning to fly VFR. The primary instrument for pitch while flying VFR is... the horizon. The real one, not the artificial one. With this being the case, you should have some ball park power settings for different phases of flight- say 2400 RPM for cruise; 2300 RPM for downwind, then carb heat on (this will reduce your RPM another 100); as Mark wrote, about 1700 abeam the numbers. Whatever the numbers are for your airplane (all recip engine airplanes have about the same numbers), your CFI will/should give them to you. Now these are ball park numbers. You don't fixate on your RPM gauge while setting them... you set them by feel and sound, then cross reference your RPM and what the setting is doing for you. Strong winds? You may need more power on your approach. Light winds? Maybe less.
Once your power is set, set your pitch by looking outside at the horizon. Trim. Then cross check your pitch with your airspeed indicator and/or your VSI.
Frankly, by the time you are ready to solo you should be able to fly traffic patterns without referencing your instruments. I actually have my pre-solo students fly traffic patterns with all instruments covered. I have commercial students fly commercial maneuvers with all the instruments covered up. This is callled... stick and rudder flying. This is what you should be working on at this point.
Click to expand...

And you are accepting students for a CFI Initial, yes? ;)
Nice thread approach, you're getting some good advise there.
 
Thanks guys!



I think I'm hearing two (2) separate and distinct camps in here on this subject and that might confirm why my own brain was split on the matter itself.

I need a minute to digest this - before I post a follow-up. I'll need a minute to re-read.... and then some dinner to think. It would seem to me [neophyte] that the whole ball of wax is Pitch/Power/Trim. If a pilot cannot do that correctly - OR - learns some bad habits along the way from "somebody" [I ain't say'n who, lol.] then he/she runs the risk of carrying those same bad habits into more complex aircraft until one day he/she does something that gets him/her into trouble.

Don't want to be "that guy."

So, I'll come back to this thread after I have a chance to re-read and understand the two camps that I perceive are resident in this thread. In fact, after second thought, there might even be as many as three (3) different camps on this subject. Hmmmm. I want to ask relevant questions, so allow me some time to re-read/analyze.

BTW - the three camps I got from my first reading were:

a) By the Numbers
b) By the Seat of your Pants
c) By the Numbers integrated with By the Seat of your Pants

Three distinct groups. Anyway, I'll be back with a follow-up.
--------------

For all you wannabe pilots out there [just like me] who are lurking and not posting - yes, you! You really should start posting your questions AFTER you do some initial homework, here. This forum gives you good feedback on your thinking.

I know you are lurking and not posting.....because....... I was one of you at one point! Just some FYI.
 
As a student pilot your first priority is to learn how to fly the airplane by "feel", not by those silly gauges in the pannel. I routinely use post it notes to cover up everything but the airspeed indicator. Remember the following acronym, TLAR. That Looks About Right.

Flying is such a dynamic excercise that you need to discard formulas and tables. You don't calculate a intercept vector when you are following another airplane, you just eyeball it and modify as nessacery. Flying has much more in common with sports than science.

Your background in finance will be a handicap as you learn to fly. Engineers can often have the same problems, thinking analog instead of digital.
 
USMCmech said:
As a student pilot your first priority is to learn how to fly the airplane by "feel", not by those silly gauges in the pannel. I routinely use post it notes to cover up everything but the airspeed indicator. Remember the following acronym, TLAR. That Looks About Right.
Click to expand...

Very cool post!
TLAR can translate into any airframe, situation and cause.
As a glider student you learn early on to keep your eyes outside the airplane, and make the airplane do what you want with only occasional glances at any instrument. For example when entering a thermal your seat of the pants tells you that it is time to turn into it. Eyes outside.
You complete the turn, keeping the cotton string on your windshield straight. The "seat of the pants" feeling will cease to exist when the situation has stabilized. Things calm down.
You verify a slight climb by looking at your VSI, check your speed and try to remain in the "wave" It takes a turn or two to find out what the best setting and speed is. 90% of the time you may know of, or find other gliders being in this same thermal, and by looking at their path you can judge how well it works for them and modify your own.

I found the very best trainer for seat of the pants flying to be trying to accurately follow a tow plane. Eyes outside. Formation flights are next in line. Low and slow does the trick too.

However, once you can fly by visual clues and the seat of your pants you also need to pay attention to certain things like altitude, speed, and desired climb rates, or exact headings. When your instructor asks you to go into a 45 degree bank turn, you will set the airplane up, until "ILAR" and then verify everything on your instruments quickly. Knowing how turning affects your control inputs will make you anticipate, act and verify. Your eyes will wander right back outside and you modify everything by feel and look.

When Instrument flying starts you will be introduced to flying solely by reference to instruments, at which point you will learn to ignore a lot of the seat of your pants flying and the fact that every setting you change has a certain result, which you then have to (again) anticipate, act upon, and verify, just by looking at the instruments, instead of outside. Just as your judgement improves, your skill will improve and you come to appreciate instructors who have the talent to convert humans to learn, understand, apply and correlate their actions in an aircraft. It's a truly amazing thing, IMHO.

Then, there comes the Grumman Goose, which is flown by the seat of the pants, numbers and the sound of the hull... :cwm27:
 
My modest advice is: Trim for a speed.

This more or less keeps you from constantly messing with the power AND trim during climb, descent and approach.
 
As a student pilot, your pitch for straight and level should be using the horizon as the reference. Set the power for cruise to your recommended power setting, pitch the yoke to maintain altitude, trim to relieve your pressure on the yoke and then take a mental picture of what it looks like outside. It varies on different airplanes, but once you have the reference (Like the top of the compass 2" below the horizon or whatever) you can then use that for your pitch setting as long as you keep the power setting consistent.

For other maneuvers, you do the same thing. Your instructor should tell you general power settings to use. For example, in the 172, I teach my students to start Power On, Power Off, and Slow Flight with a power reduction to around 1500RPM. It doesn't have to be exact. I teach them to listen to the sound of engine at this power setting. I cover up the tach and show them that they can get relatively close without looking inside too much.

For power on stalls, I have heard of some instructors teaching their students to use rudder to keep the ball centered, which I think is horrible advice for a student pilot. Every reference should be OUTSIDE of the airplane.

I hope those examples help.
 
mojo6911 said:
For power on stalls, I have heard of some instructors teaching their students to use rudder to keep the ball centered, which I think is horrible advice for a student pilot. Every reference should be OUTSIDE of the airplane.
Click to expand...
Right you are! I find that commercial students tend to relapse to looking too much inside. Their flying improves remarkably when I take those references away.
 
Approach Control said:
BTW - the three camps I got from my first reading were:

a) By the Numbers
b) By the Seat of your Pants
c) By the Numbers integrated with By the Seat of your Pants

Three distinct groups. Anyway, I'll be back with a follow-up.
Click to expand...

I think it all boils down to something along these lines:

Flying is like dancing. There is certain criteria to follow, but a person has to "feel" it as well.

You could learn how to dance by saying, "Just move your body to the music." That's "seat of your pants" dancing.

You could learn how to dance by saying, "Move your right foot six inches right. Now move your left foot 12 inches back. Now..." That's "by the numbers" dancing.

If all you do is the first method, you'll probably have a good time, but you won't win a dance competition if you have to follow certain criteria.

If all you do is the second method, you'll learn how to dance, but it'll be a rigid, mechanical, emotionless way to dance. You won't understand what's actually going on, you'll just be putting your body through the motions. You still won't do well in a competition.

You have to combine the two methods at some point in time if you want to be a good dancer.

For most people, learning "seat of the pants" flying builds a better foundation to start with (VFR flying with the Private Pilot certificate). This type of flying stresses all the key points of what is going on with a plane. They can see it and feel it. Then they add in the "by the numbers" method second (with the instrument rating). This increases their precision and deepens their understanding of the intricacies involved. When it's all said and done, skilled pilots use both in equal measure (to fly machines like the jet in your avatar).



Hopefully this analogy works. I don't know how to dance.
 
I hope I don't get bashed on for this, but trim for airspeed and power for altitude. Next time your out flying, trim for an airspeed. Then add 300RPM, should give you roughly 300FPM climb and around minus 3-5 kts. Then adjust power for level flight again. Then reduce power by 300 RPM, which should equal 300fpm descent and plus 3-5 knots.

Hence pitch for an airspeed and power for an altitude. And please, keep the rebutal's nice.:hiya:
 
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