Flight Following from Ground Control

millerjd

New Member
I asked my BFR instructor this question and both of us came to the same conclusion that it's possible, but probably not practical.

A little background:
Flying the PHX Class B transition over the approach ends is one of my favorite routes for both saving time going around the airspace and the view you get of the city along with the joy of having an eye out looking at you. I usually request Flight Following while I'm in the transition when things have quieted down on the radio. If I request it while I request the transition, usually PHX APP either forgets or is too busy to get me a Flight Following Squawk and not just a Squawk for the transition. I usually figure it out if I wasn't given a Squawk starting with a '4'.

Original Goal:
I'm all about saving time on the radio, and I think I'm pretty to the point when I start talking. My original question is about being able to ask for flight following from Ground Control like an IFR pilot would get clearance for. For example going Payson from Chandler and calling up PHX APP with just saying "...With you 3,500 at Firebird" after crossing the Snooty Stellar Airport in between.

Personal Conclusion:
That you can do it, but due to a Class G airport in between, might be a little weird. Plus it is an unusual request and Ground Control may not really want to do it. I don't see why you couldn't do it, it's similar to an IFR clearance, just not an IFR flight.

Really, the goal would be to cut down on time dealing with PHX APP on the radio giving less chance to interfere with Air Carrier operations.

Thoughts? Good/Bad Idea?
 
It all depends on the tower, and the equipment they have. In the tower I'm training in, all we have to do is type a few commands into the STARS system, and about 10 seconds later get a squawk for you. This puts you into the system. The squawk you get is not a squawk reserved for a specific facility. It is really no big deal for us to do it. Now, if the tower does not have the equipment, or it is down for maintenance, that is a different story. If that is the case, more than likely your best bet will be to just contact the approach facility yourself. Then, after you depart, the tower will just have you contact departure. Assuming that you are neparting for an airport in Class D airspace, it is rather unlikely that you would ever go through Class G airspace, you may go through Class E though. If there is Class G, however, and it goes higher than Class G typically goes, remember, just because you are not in controlled airspace does not mean you aren't on radar. If you are in radar contact, regardless of the airspace, ATC can still have your back. Keep in mind, since these are additional services, if PHX is too busy, you may here the magical "radar services terminated, squawk VFR". If you're unsure, just ask ground if they can set up flight following for you.
 
Keep it simple request flight following on clearance. Or in class G when you make radio contact.
 
....The squawk you get is not a squawk reserved for a specific facility. It is really no big deal for us to do it. Now, if the tower does not have the equipment, or it is down for maintenance, that is a different story. If that is the case, more than likely your best bet will be to just contact the approach facility yourself. Then, after you depart, the tower will just have you contact departure. Assuming that you are neparting for an airport in Class D airspace, it is rather unlikely that you would ever go through Class G airspace, you may go through Class E though. If there is Class G, however, and it goes higher than Class G typically goes, remember, just because you are not in controlled airspace does not mean you aren't on radar. If you are in radar contact, regardless of the airspace, ATC can still have your back. Keep in mind, since these are additional services, if PHX is too busy, you may here the magical "radar services terminated, squawk VFR". If you're unsure, just ask ground if they can set up flight following for you.

But would you still put in the intended final destination? I figure that is the key here in the whole process. If PHX APP knows where I'm going with only saying "...with you 3,500 at Firebird" then he can just clear me through class bravo without me actually requesting it and telling him my final destination, type of aircraft, planned altitude. He'll just know that I'm south of the airport, and would like to be on the north side and then pass me on to Albuquerque center.
 
But would you still put in the intended final destination? I figure that is the key here in the whole process. If PHX APP knows where I'm going with only saying "...with you 3,500 at Firebird" then he can just clear me through class bravo without me actually requesting it and telling him my final destination, type of aircraft, planned altitude. He'll just know that I'm south of the airport, and would like to be on the north side and then pass me on to Albuquerque center.

Yes, when the commands are typed in for a squawk, we enter, A/C type and ID, departure and destination point. All the controllers along the route will then know this, and you will be handed off accordingly, based on the path of your flight, if your path takes you in Albuquerque Centers airspace, you will get handed off to them, or if your flight path remains in PHX, they will keep you. Remember, you are still VFR, so you control where you are flying, but you still will need to get entry into the class B, having flight following does not mean you don't have to get a clearance into the class B. At the same time, if you have flight following, you don't have to get your own clearance, or establish communication with Class D towers, that becomes the responsibility of the controller. Along your route, the controller still may drop you, though, if they are too busy, so keep that in mind
 
Keep it simple request flight following on clearance. Or in class G when you make radio contact.

I can't think of anything more simple(for the pilot) than receiving a discrete squawk code and frequency while still on the ground. But obviously it's not so simple for atc. I've asked the guys in the tower in at my local airport and they say that TRACON is either unable or unwilling to coordinate it.

Let me ask you this question. Is it more simple for you to get your IFR clearance on the ground (when you are at a tower controlled airport) or do you always wait until you are in the air?
 
many times we (vfr twr) don't get your codes from socal because they would rather just type it in WHILE radar identifying your a/c all at the same time, rather than doing the fp first and then talking to you again later on, it's very logical when I think about it really.

it depends who's on though, some like to throw us the code before the a/c departs so they tag up automatically when airborne.

my suggestion to you is this: listen to info on the atis concerning vfr a/c or ask ground when you're ready to taxi.
 
"Nxxxx, we don't offer flight following at this facility. After you leave the Delta airspace, contact center on 123.45 with your request."

I can't tell you how many times I've said that on ground. Our letter of agreement with the center than controls the overlying airspace above our airport does not grant us any transponders codes to assign to VFR aircraft.

But at the same time, I know a bunch of facilities do have the ability to set up flight following on the ground.

So, the best thing to do is just to ask.

"Ground, Nxxxx, at the self serve pump with information zulu, VFR southbound to Key West. Request flight following."

I'll give you the line above, then say taxi to the runway.

Ohh, and be sure to give the cardinal direction of flight (northwest, east, etc), along with your destination. The tower controller will want to know which way you're going to turn out from runway, and I don't know the direction of every middle-of-nowhere regional airport within the range of your airplane.
 
It is common practice, and the way I was taught when I was a student pilot, at the airport I fly out of (KDWH) to request VFR flight following on the ground before departure. We're a Class D airport 10 miles or so west of KIAH. We're far enough away from the primary airport to not be within the Bravo airspace where it begins from the surface up. It starts at 2000ft, and when you receive your clearance from ground they tell you your squawk code, the appropriate Houston Approach frequency, and then to maintain VFR below 2000ft until cleared in by approach.

FWIW, I've also requested flight following with ground control at KSJT, taking off from there en route to KAUS.

With that said, I would attempt the request. The worst that can happen is that they deny you and you have to pick it up airborne.

-Nick
 
Words....

Thanks for all the replies. I definitely can see how it can depend on the airport and surrounding airspace.

The advantage I see is being able to alleviate a busy Class B App Controller from setting up my flight following and having a Class D airport Controller do it where it might not as busy at the time. Also less time circling over known position waiting and wasting gas,mic time, etc.

I definitely will try it here at KCHD and report back how it goes. I think the key words to use are "..if able..."
 
I asked my BFR instructor this question and both of us came to the same conclusion that it's possible, but probably not practical.

A little background:
Flying the PHX Class B transition over the approach ends is one of my favorite routes for both saving time going around the airspace and the view you get of the city along with the joy of having an eye out looking at you. I usually request Flight Following while I'm in the transition when things have quieted down on the radio. If I request it while I request the transition, usually PHX APP either forgets or is too busy to get me a Flight Following Squawk and not just a Squawk for the transition. I usually figure it out if I wasn't given a Squawk starting with a '4'.

Original Goal:
I'm all about saving time on the radio, and I think I'm pretty to the point when I start talking. My original question is about being able to ask for flight following from Ground Control like an IFR pilot would get clearance for. For example going Payson from Chandler and calling up PHX APP with just saying "...With you 3,500 at Firebird" after crossing the Snooty Stellar Airport in between.

Personal Conclusion:
That you can do it, but due to a Class G airport in between, might be a little weird. Plus it is an unusual request and Ground Control may not really want to do it. I don't see why you couldn't do it, it's similar to an IFR clearance, just not an IFR flight.

Really, the goal would be to cut down on time dealing with PHX APP on the radio giving less chance to interfere with Air Carrier operations.

Thoughts? Good/Bad Idea?

"I'm all about saving time on the radio"....

"With you 3,500 at Firebird"

Remember, "with you" is redundant. If you're checking in on freq, you're with him! :)

Best thing to do is takeoff out of CHD, change to TRACON south, head past Memorial Field to Firebird, check in with PHX for the transition, and just tell him you want the northbound transition....no need to tell him a destination. Once you complete the transition north and are told "leaving Class B, squawk VFR, freq change approved", then if you want further flight following, simply call up ABQ center from there. It's doesn't need to be made any more difficult than that. And trying to "coordinate" flight following with PHX to get him to hand you of to ABQ....will likely be forgotten by TRACON.

Is this what you're asking?
 
Best thing to do is takeoff out of CHD, change to TRACON south, head past Memorial Field to Firebird, check in with PHX for the transition, and just tell him you want the northbound transition....no need to tell him a destination. Once you complete the transition north and are told "leaving Class B, squawk VFR, freq change approved", then if you want further flight following, simply call up ABQ center from there. It's doesn't need to be made any more difficult than that. And trying to "coordinate" flight following with PHX to get him to hand you of to ABQ....will likely be forgotten by TRACON.

Is this what you're asking?

Well, that works, but this is usually what I say....

"Phoenix App, Varga Nxxxxx at firebird 3,500 type VG-21/U 8,000 with Victor requesting Flight Following to Sedona, 9,500"

This does a lot in one sentence. He knows where I am, where I'm going (ala north bound transition without saying it), what altitude I eventually want after the transition, he knows that I want flight following and knows my ultimate destination, how fast I can go, and sets me up with ABQ so I don't have to repeat half this information again whilst maintaining the "eye in the sky" in case I go down in flames in between.

Once I get switched over to the Northern Approach Control, I usually ask "if able, request V327" I stay visual, but use the VOR to make my trip shorter and more percise. And since I'm past the actual airport even though not finished with the actual transition route, they usually will grant it with "resume own navigation, maintain 9,000"

When leaving his controlled airspace he'll say "contact ABQ center on xxx.xx" and then I have a short "...with you climbing through x,xxx for x,xxx" and that's it. Then I set the autopilot, crack open a beer and boot up the dvd player. (Just kidding, I've never used an autopilot nor know how to use one)

The way you're proposing I think is the way I was originally taught, but it just seemed like there was a better use of the system. I would get two sqwaks, one for PHX Class B and one for Flight Following. I would have to request the transition, be told to squawk VFR, then I would switch frequencies to ABQ, tell them a similar story and get a different squawk.

My question was originally, can I take this even farther and do it on the ground. (The flight following, I know I can drink beer and watch movies). Sort of like a pseudo IFR clearance.
 
Well, that works, but this is usually what I say....

"Phoenix App, Varga Nxxxxx at firebird 3,500 to Sedona 9,500 type VG-21/U 8,000 with Victor requesting Flight Following"

This does a lot in one sentence. He knows where I am, where I'm going (ala north bound transition without saying it), what altitude I eventually want after the transition, he knows that I want flight following and knows my ultimate destination, how fast I can go, and sets me up with ABQ so I don't have to repeat half this information again whilst maintaining the "eye in the sky" in case I go down in flames in between.

Alot of info there. About 40% of which I don't think ATC necessarily needs, for flight following...especially TRACON. The thing is, asking for final altitude and destination to the TRACON controller (and worse, the tower controller at CHD) is they're not working you....heck, no one is working you really. You're just leaving CHD and transitioning through PHX....the TRACON controller has alot to do (depending on time of day) far more than work some guy's VFR "handoff" when the VFR dude can just do it himself (and should, IMO) once he leaves the Class B.

Once I get switched over to the Northern Approach Control, I usually ask "if able, request V327" I stay visual, but use the VOR to make my trip shorter and more percise. And since I'm past the actual airport even though not finished with the actual transition route, they usually will grant it with "resume own navigation, maintain 9,000"

Two things you could do here: 1. fly the transition as published, and when cleared of Class B and told to squawk VFR, then own-nav northbound. Or 2. make your request like you do...if they grant it, cool. If not, fly as published. No problem there.

When leaving his controlled airspace he'll say "contact ABQ center on xxx.xx" and then I have a short "...with you climbing through x,xxx for x,xxx" and that's it. Then I set the autopilot, crack open a beer and boot up the dvd player. (Just kidding, I've never used an autopilot nor know how to use one)

"With you" is redundant. Just check in and state "Varga XX, x,xxx for x,xxx". But that works too. No problem there either.

The way you're proposing I think is the way I was originally taught, but it just seemed like there was a better use of the system. I would get two sqwaks, one for PHX Class B and one for Flight Following. I would have to request the transition then be told to squawk VFR, then I would switch frequencies to abq, tell them a similar story and get a different squawk.

My question was originally, can I take this even farther and do it on the ground. (The flight following, I know I can drink beer and watch movies)

Again, I wouldn't bother CHD tower with a VFR request all the way to past PHX airspace. Unless you're IFR, he could care less. Just takeoff, be a pilot, and do the pilot stuff. The way you're attempting to "better use the system" here is akin to driving 54 mph in your car, because 55 mph burns more fuel. Lots of effort and being a pain in ATCs side, for very little gain.
 
Again, I wouldn't bother CHD tower with a VFR request all the way to past PHX airspace. Unless you're IFR, he could care less. Just takeoff, be a pilot, and do the pilot stuff. The way you're attempting to "better use the system" here is akin to driving 54 mph in your car, because 55 mph burns more fuel. Lots of effort and being a pain in ATCs side, for very little gain.

Last thing I want to do is be a pain. I suppose this is just hypothetical and probably useless for me in terms of actually trying to use it since I'm working on my IFR ticket anyways.

It's something that I've always pondered in the back of my head, and if it was all around a better idea, I would pass it on to my future students if the FAA ever thinks I'm capable of teaching others.
 
Last thing I want to do is be a pain. I suppose this is just hypothetical and probably useless for me in terms of actually trying to use it since I'm working on my IFR ticket anyways.

It's something that I've always pondered in the back of my head, and if it was all around a better idea, I would pass it on to my future students if the FAA ever thinks I'm capable of teaching others.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work...it may, depending on ATC workload. But I could just see your callsign becoming "that guy" in the valley, to the tower and TRACON people. :D
 
I'm not saying it wouldn't work...it may, depending on ATC workload. But I could just see your callsign becoming "that guy" in the valley, to the tower and TRACON people. :D

I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I'm not looking to be "right" but the whole reason I came up with idea was to offload the workload from Phoenix ATC and ABQ Center and make the call to Ground. Which, if they do IFR clearances anyways, how different is VFR following and is it really that much of a bother?

Again, just an idea, doesn't seem too popular though. I might call Chandler tower on the phone sometime when they are not busy just to see what they think. I've met some of the guy's in there and they are pretty cool people.
 
I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I'm not looking to be "right" but the whole reason I came up with idea was to offload the workload from Phoenix ATC and ABQ Center and make the call to Ground. Which, if they do IFR clearances anyways, how different is VFR following and is it really that much of a bother?

Again, just an idea, doesn't seem too popular though. I might call Chandler tower on the phone sometime when they are not busy just to see what they think. I've met some of the guy's in there and they are pretty cool people.

It really has nothing to do with right or wrong, just are you getting any more mileage out of doing something different? The difference between IFR and VFR is priority. You pretty much have none as VFR. IFR, you're in the system because you have to be and you're worked accordingly. VFR, you're (IMO) becoming a nuisance if you start trying to get IFR-style service, when you're priority is low....just file IFR if you want that. Hence, you become "that guy". You're actually creating workload for TRACON, since they have to do more with you rather than just monitor you on an published VFR transition; and again, that'll vary depending on the workload of the North/South Low controllers. Do it at 0100L, and you'll prob be fine since it'll give the controller something to do. Do it at 1600L, and you become "that guy".

Moral of the story....don't be "that guy" :D
 
It really has nothing to do with right or wrong, just are you getting any more mileage out of doing something different? The difference between IFR and VFR is priority. You pretty much have none as VFR. IFR, you're in the system because you have to be and you're worked accordingly. VFR, you're (IMO) becoming a nuisance if you start trying to get IFR-style service, when you're priority is low....just file IFR if you want that. Hence, you become "that guy". You're actually creating workload for TRACON, since they have to do more with you rather than just monitor you on an published VFR transition; and again, that'll vary depending on the workload of the North/South Low controllers. Do it at 0100L, and you'll prob be fine since it'll give the controller something to do. Do it at 1600L, and you become "that guy".

Moral of the story....don't be "that guy" :D

Point taken, working on IFR ticket anyways. :buck: I've always had a good experience with PHX Approach control, they have always seemed accommodating as long as you don't waste time with them. I've heard them chew out a pilot trying to get his own personal VFR unpublished transition and the response from approach was "I'll see if I can vector some air carriers around you... in the mean time, stay clear of class bravo and call back in 15 minutes".

The radio got really quiet and it was still mid-afternoon while my instructor and I were flying the transition. My smart-ass instructor after a few minutes called and said "Phoenix approach, Varga Nxxxx, wondering if you would vector some air carriers around for us." The controller responded on the air laughing saying "Negative!" :laff:
 
Point taken, working on IFR ticket anyways. :buck: I've always had a good experience with PHX Approach control, they have always seemed accommodating as long as you don't waste time with them. I've heard them chew out a pilot trying to get his own personal VFR unpublished transition and the response from approach was "I'll see if I can vector some air carriers around you... in the mean time, stay clear of class bravo and call back in 15 minutes".

The radio got really quiet and it was still mid-afternoon while my instructor and I were flying the transition. My smart-ass instructor after a few minutes called and said "Phoenix approach, Varga Nxxxx, wondering if you would vector some air carriers around for us." The controller responded on the air laughing saying "Negative!" :laff:

LOL! Yes....the situational awareness part of this whole deal really has to do with when you're asking for your way to be done......ask at the right time, and all's good. Ask at the wrong time? Don't want to go there.

Personally, I'm a low-level guy. CHD to PRC? I'd just as well takeoff from CHD, turn northwest to parallel just east of Dobson Road northbound at 2500'. Crossing north of Camelback Rd, turn NW to avoid SDL and head up Tatum Blvd. Passing DVT, turn northwest bound on course to PRC.

Payson? Takeoff from CHD, turn northeast between IWA and FFZ. Climb as necessary to stay under Class B, and press on up the Beeline. Going through the whole VFR transition on the way to Payson from CHD is really out of the way....unless thats what you really want to do.

Agree. Stellar is a pain. Flew cargo out of there for a couple of years when our company was there. Back then, the runway was only 1/4 lit...the first 25% of Rwy 17. Rwy 35 at night? Just make sure to avoid the powerlines at the approach end......now, you've got the bright 202 freeway to help if nothing else has changed.
 
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