OK, if it comes out to $28 an hour, that makes sense to me. I didn't do the complete math to reach that conclusion. Also, given the fact, for a first timer. . .$28 doesn't sound high to me with a commercial ticket.
What to charge?
- Thread starter mooneyguy
- Start date
OK, if it comes out to $28 an hour, that makes sense to me. I didn't do the complete math to reach that conclusion. Also, given the fact, for a first timer. . .$28 doesn't sound high to me with a commercial ticket.
TangoBravo
New Member
$24.000/year = Walmart Assistant Manager.
Lot's of drama- yes, but no buttcrunching minima instrument operations.
+ Benefits :laff:
$52.000/year = Manager Service Department in a Car Dealership.
Even more drama- yes, but nothing that endangers or holds responsibility for other peoples lives if the mechanics have not been selected by a criminal.
+ Benefits :laff:
Yes you did. You called the pilot a 300 hour pilot with less than 6 months of training. You do not realize that private and corporate owners have their own motivations for running a Mooney or Twin and that there is no set standard... for all I know they could pay him $120K if they loved him enough. If he in fact had only 300 hours he may not be flying the twin single pilot anyways - last time I checked these airplanes needed insurance too. Unless you have significant time in type thats going to be a fun game to watch @300 TT.
To the OP: keep in mind that there are people with many more hours and much lower motives waiting for a gig like this. Talk to the owners and find out if their first pencil insults you. If it does, let them open it up to the market. I assure you, it will be gone in no time.
If not, pull out your calculator and see where you stand. Heck you learned to be a Commercial Pilot - maybe it's time to take responsibility for your life and find out if you can make a buck on your own. Your life is your business. It's the "MOONEYGUY, Inc." You are the CEO. Act like it.
Lot's of drama- yes, but no buttcrunching minima instrument operations.
+ Benefits :laff:
$52.000/year = Manager Service Department in a Car Dealership.
Even more drama- yes, but nothing that endangers or holds responsibility for other peoples lives if the mechanics have not been selected by a criminal.
+ Benefits :laff:
Yes you did. You called the pilot a 300 hour pilot with less than 6 months of training. You do not realize that private and corporate owners have their own motivations for running a Mooney or Twin and that there is no set standard... for all I know they could pay him $120K if they loved him enough. If he in fact had only 300 hours he may not be flying the twin single pilot anyways - last time I checked these airplanes needed insurance too. Unless you have significant time in type thats going to be a fun game to watch @300 TT.
To the OP: keep in mind that there are people with many more hours and much lower motives waiting for a gig like this. Talk to the owners and find out if their first pencil insults you. If it does, let them open it up to the market. I assure you, it will be gone in no time.
If not, pull out your calculator and see where you stand. Heck you learned to be a Commercial Pilot - maybe it's time to take responsibility for your life and find out if you can make a buck on your own. Your life is your business. It's the "MOONEYGUY, Inc." You are the CEO. Act like it.
cool92092
Well-Known Member
MFT1Air to argue this from a business perspective, as you have mentioned you feel it is not sound business practice to high-ball, why do you feel it is a good business practice to low-ball yourself? When a contract gets written up, it is first negotiated. If the pilot asks for $400 per day and the owner feels it is too much he will try to negotiate a lower figure. This at least gives the pilot a higher price to start with and leaves room to shave off dollars in the process of negotiation. If you start off low then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage when it comes contract negotiation time. Why should the contractor (regardless of profession) seek to accomodate the client's interests ahead of his own? Just from a business man's standpoint it makes sense for the person offering services to come in with a high figure and for the person paying for services to come in with a low figure and best case both parties meet half way.
For the OP: sit down and run some various senarios through your head that could occur in which you would get the short end of the stick and make sure your contract stipulates some kind of protection against it. You may also want to consider being over worked. Lets say the owner needs you to fly with him for a three week trip in which you are flying everyday. Maybe there should be a clause that limits your days on without a day of rest. Just something to think about, and good luck with the offer! I'm jealous.
For the OP: sit down and run some various senarios through your head that could occur in which you would get the short end of the stick and make sure your contract stipulates some kind of protection against it. You may also want to consider being over worked. Lets say the owner needs you to fly with him for a three week trip in which you are flying everyday. Maybe there should be a clause that limits your days on without a day of rest. Just something to think about, and good luck with the offer! I'm jealous.
Hey, I'll not argue any of your points. Why? Rationale is superb.
Kinda synonymous with fireman, right? I'm there when you need me even when there IS no fire.
No argument out of me here.Perhaps, but understand you have pilots who have the potential to be abused as well. . .in any organization. As you said, if I wanted one, I'd go find one. . .which I would seriously consider if the candidates' resumes deem it appropriate to perhaps hire a pilot/A&P. Again, it's potentially cost effective to do so. . .and yes, I'd expect to pay the individual more if he/she brought that added utility to the table.
OK, help me. . .and I'm not trying to be flippant or sarcastic when I say this. You mentioned "managing" an airplane. I'm not one to attempt to compare aircraft, but we're talking about a single engine high performance airplane and a twin (I forget what-twin Cessna?) So, what is it to managing an airplane or two. . .particularly two general aviation aircraft vice say a larger more complex series of aircraft?
mooneyguy
been around forever
Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.
He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.
Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well.
I guess one can assume you are not the business owner of a multi million dollar company who's time is worth way more then $30 per hour. A lesson I learned a long time ago, don’t do $10 an hour clerical work when you should be out making $300 hour doing business!
Right now this guy is driving himself as much as ten hours one way to do business. While he’s sitting in his car he is not getting much if any business done! Ok, so he owns his own plane, Why spend 2 hours pre-flighting getting the plane ready, then making the flight, then another hour or two post flight when you can make a call walk out to the plane get in a go?
If he can make 4K in a day why should he be at the airport looking at log books, scheduling service, or anything aircraft related. Have you ever owned a plane? I have owned 3. I can assure you If you manage your own plane the service time usually adds up to more then flight time! A guy making just 1 Mil a year makes $3800 per day! if he loses 9.5 work days he just lost $36000
I appreciate all the replies with tips on how to handle this.
My initial thought is to propose a base rate of 3000 per month. This gets them a full time pilot for up to 60 hours flight time (with negotiated hard days off). It also gives them a full time manager. Who will handle all maintenance, and day to day activities plane related.
If the flight time goes over 60 hrs it will be billed out hourly. Overnights if required they will pay for room, and $50 per diem. All expenses airplane related will be paid by the owners!
this is just rough draft, but this is what I am thinking for now...as someone mentioned I know there are a lot of people who would come in behind me and offer themselves for nothing, but personally I will not put on a skirt and go stand on the street corner!
Thanks again for the helpful replies and would appreciate more useful feedback!
p.s. the mooney is not the primary A/C actually it will probably be sold, but I would manage it until it is sold. The twin cessna is/will be the primary aircraft...and no I have not stated what type twin cessna, and wont just yet.
Jason,
I don't know where you're going here, but let me attempt to understand your perspective.
Firstly, I never said for anyone to sell themselves short. If you infer anything from my posts, it is to get the best you can from any opportunity available, but if it's the only thing out there, and you're struggling to survive, take it. The argument is a job with money even short term is better than no job at all.
(I'm thinking maybe you're thinking I'm naive or stupid, but let me breath first.)
Your statement, as it relates to experience, as you already know is rhetorical. Hello? Numerous deceased pilots with many hours of flight time are listed in the NTSB final reports having made errors in judgement which contributed to their demise, so I know you're NOT telling me to take experience into consider, are you? It is simply a part of the whole person pilot, right? Oh, yes. . .in your aforementioned comment, you addressed those same positive traits. So, we agree.
Are you asking me to compare the flight DEPARTMENT of a major oil corporation to a business owner with two airplanes? OK, I'll bite; no, the oil company paid the FO a very hefty salary with benefits. The numerous FAs, the chief mechanics, the dispatchers are also being paid very well too. I concur with you; they were not low balled. As a matter of fact, they've probably raised the bar for many others. . .which is a good thing.
Are we in agreement there? But let's back to the Mooney.
That's closer to earth/reality for me. 
Mooneyguy,
I am not one to argue with you any of your points addressed above. Let me bring it up a notch and be more philosophical and summarize what you just addressed above.
The owner makes $4000 a day; he can hire you for $3000 a month and not have to perform menial aviation related tasks. It's beneath you. Okay. . .
A business owner of a multimillion dollar organization made his millions NOT by cavalierly throwing away or spending money just because they have it; they made their "profits" by providing sound, smart and most importantly analytical business acumen and practices.
You've probably read many a Flying magazine over your aviation career, and you have numerous examples of multimillionares flying themselves, so your financial justification of saving the owner money lacks merit. Perhaps if the multimillion became a corporate jet or whatever. . .okay, having a corporate pilot might be a sound business practice. . . but right now? Maybe. . .or maybe not?
If you're going to justify $3000 a month by saying what you quoted previously, my recommendation is you support that number with something more substantive.
PS - kinda wonder if he has a cook and cleaning lady. . .chauffeur, etc.
Alex,
Honestly, I don't know. . .I can't, to be honest, provide you with what I would perceive to be a salary range. Whatever the number is however, I would be curious what considerations and factors went into deciding that dollar amount. That's what, I suppose, everyone is asking now. I understood your number. Made sense. . .still sounded low at $28 an hour given the fact FBO CFIs make $30 and above in many places, but I thought they split that with the aircraft owner. There are other locations at the universities where more can be made.
If I were arguing a position to support what I request, I guess my insight would be a few of the universities that have salaried instructors. I'd start there as my low number and work my way up. Sure, there'd be more factors to consider, but I believe my baseline would start there.
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Auctioner: Our first item is a pair of panties confiscated from a prostitute.
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OK, I can start being serious now!
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
This, from someone who had a jumpmaster PUSH me out of a reliable functioning machine!
So your the one
:yeahthat:
Dang it, Ian - I need to work much harder to be as succinct as possible. Although, my reason for the questions is I am curious what others use as negotiating bargaining techniques/tools to be the effective negotiator. We all know simply asking is not enough.
. . .and as we also know, we can bargain/negotiate ourselves totally out of a job as well. Does that mean the person hired is a lesser qualified pilot because of his or her pay?
I have no idea... I've never applied to or negotiated for a contract job before. And I'm not sure where I got the 75k figure...
... man, those Jimmies and Cokes were good last night!
Hey, I went to Pappasitos last night for a party in preparation for the next shuttle launch.
It was fajitas, mojitos, margaritas, and micheladas. Life was grand. Hey, are you familiar with Tim Kopra?
I know he's an astronaut and that's it really. Why... did you drink with him?
Yep, he's on my training team. I was wondering if he was in Campbell the same time you were. You know you "Rucker boys" bond closely.
http://www.goarmy.com/home/vw/index.jsp
After the intro thing…click on the plus sign in the clouds to get to a commercial that Kopra made for the army.