What to charge?

mooneyguy

mooneyguy

been around forever
I'm curious if any one on here fly's for a private individual? I have a guy who has a Mooney and a twin Cessna who has approached me to fly for him. What he would like is to have me on a retainer pay me a rate for 20-30hrs per month (this would be times 2 since there is a business partner who also would like to fly 20/30 per month). Anything over the 20/30 hours would be paid per hour.
The flying would be regional. 200-400 miles. Possible flights into mexico (not very often).
I’m curious how others are paid, and what other "rules" are established. e.g. additional charge for overnights, per diem etc.

Any one with this experience, i would appreciate hearing about it. Thank You
 
Heck I'd do it for 5.15 an hour!

Seriously though. I'll ask a buddy of mine who does contract flying what he'd charge. I think I'd try to negotiate 300 dollars a day + expenses (including hotel, food, and transportation).

Where's Citationkid when you need him?:)
 
A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill:hiya:...just had to stir the pot didn't you...:D

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!
 
mooneyguy said:
A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill:hiya:...just had to stir the pot didn't you...:D

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!
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Give it a couple of posts and you'll get a diverse viewpoint. You can then pick a plan that affords everyone a "win-win."
 
If they are wanting you on retainer at all times, I would go for a monthly salary, with per diem for overnights. I don't know what a good monthly rate is for this type of flying, but it should be something worth it to you. If you just do the daily rate, and they slow their flying, then you are hosed for the month(s) they do not fly. If you do decide to do daily rates, though, then make sure it is in your contract for all days to be paid equally (i.e., no 1/2 pay for your "vacation" in Mexico).

Make sure you get whatever your agreement is in writing. DO NOT go on a hand shake and verbal agreement. You will lose in the end. For per diem, average pay is $100/ day while on the road and $125+ for international flights. Negotiate what you can with them, but that seems to be the norm.

Make sure your contract has in it what level of hotels you are expecting to stay in...usually 4 or 5 stars is acceptable. If you know the operation and know they are staying in Motel 6's then of course don't ask for 4-5 star hotels.:panic:

I'm sure others will chime in. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Hopefully, this thread doesn't end up like some others on here...
 
mooneyguy said:
A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill:hiya:...just had to stir the pot didn't you...:D

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!
Click to expand...


Its a curse man:panic::D
 
mooneyguy said:
I'm curious if any one on here fly's for a private individual? I have a guy who has a Mooney and a twin Cessna who has approached me to fly for him. What he would like is to have me on a retainer pay me a rate for 20-30hrs per month (this would be times 2 since there is a business partner who also would like to fly 20/30 per month). Anything over the 20/30 hours would be paid per hour.
The flying would be regional. 200-400 miles. Possible flights into mexico (not very often).
I’m curious how others are paid, and what other "rules" are established. e.g. additional charge for overnights, per diem etc.

Any one with this experience, i would appreciate hearing about it. Thank You
Click to expand...

I would charge $300 per day with a $900 per week cap and a 10 day per month guarentee. This way neither of you get screwed. They don't have to pay $2100 a week if you fly every day, but you get a few dollars every week incase they don't fly. They take care of all expenses. If I am put on a retainer they get priority over any other flying. I would also be willing to take care of managing the aircraft. I would not charge each person seperately. Who ever flies the most pays the most for the month.

Let me know if you have any questions,

Alex.
 
Citationkid said:
I would charge $300 per day with a $900 per week cap and a 10 day per month guarentee. This way neither of you get screwed. They don't have to pay $2100 a week if you fly every day, but you get a few dollars every week incase they don't fly. They take care of all expenses. If I am put on a retainer they get priority over any other flying. I would also be willing to take care of managing the aircraft. I would not charge each person seperately. Who ever flies the most pays the most for the month.

Let me know if you have any questions,

Alex.
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I won't cross thread post, but I'll ask you to please explain your rationale if you would about the quote you provided. Personally, I believe you high balled a number. . .but I might not be looking as aspects of your quote that, from your experiences, you could provide explanation.

For example, if we did the math. . .$900 a week GUARANTEED is approximately $40 - $46K a year. Now, for a single engine Mooney or a light twin. . .any and everyone who just finished their commercial ticket would jump on an opportunity like that. . .really! Is that truly realistic for a job like this? Heck, the plane's monthly payment borders around that amount for a Mooney. That's not sound business practice if you ask me. . .but I'm asking you. ;)

Further clarification. . .he did say the most he'd fly would approximate 20/30 hours a month and anything over 30 would be an hourly surcharge. . .so, 30/4 is approximately 8 hrs a week (high ball) (numbers aren't right if you're talking 400nm in a Mooney or a twin). . .which is approximately 2 or 3 flights a week for 3 hours max. That's approximately $600 - $900 a week. We're talking over $100 an hour ball park.

CFIs would give up their day jobs for a gig like this. . .
 
MFT1Air said:
For example, if we did the math. . .$900 a week GUARANTEED is approximately $40 - $46K a year. Now, for a single engine Mooney or a light twin. . .any and everyone who just finished their commercial ticket would jump on an opportunity like that. . .really! Is that truly realistic for a job like this? Heck, the plane's monthly payment borders around that amount for a Mooney. That's not sound business practice if you ask me. . .but I'm asking you. ;)
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$900 a week is the cap or the most he could make in a week. The guarenteed money is 10 days per month, which would be $3000 per month or $36,000 per year, which is not very high. That comes out to $18,000 per year per partner.

Further clarification. . .he did say the most he'd fly would approximate 20/30 hours a month and anything over 30 would be an hourly surcharge. . .so, 30/4 is approximately 8 hrs a week (high ball) (numbers aren't right if you're talking 400nm in a Mooney or a twin). . .which is approximately 2 or 3 flights a week for 3 hours max. That's approximately $600 - $900 a week. We're talking over $100 an hour ball park.
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If you are going to charge by the hour you would want to charge by the time away from home, not the flight time. This isn't the airlines. He could do a 100 mile trip, sit for two days and fly home. That would be two hours of pay for two days of work by your logic. That doesn't sound like good business for the pilot does it:) If he does three flights a week he would probally be looking at about eight hours per day of duty time, which is what his pay would be based off of. At $900 per week and 32 hours of work that is about $28 per hour, which is by no means a lot.


Alex.
 
I second going for the monthly salary. I'm a salaried employee and I flew, on average, 35 hours/month last year. From the information you posted, it looks like you're looking at 40-60 hours a month, which is a healthy amount of flying. Are they going to put you in charge of managing the airplanes as well? Scheduling maintenance, school, etc? Granted, it's not as extensive on a Mooney and Twin Cessna as it would be a Learjet, but those things still need to be done (although I have no idea if Twin Cessna school is required for insurance). If you go the contract route, be sure to get enough money to cover your insurance and school if the insurance company does indeed require it.
 
Go for the salary with a set number of hours/days then if you go over that, it will be hourly or daily overtime/bonus...

As a Full Time Contractor myself, if you do just the day rate or hourly rate, there WILL be a month when you don't make a dime and it hurts!

IMHO
I'd do a monthly salary for a set number of days then have a rate for each additional day (somewhere in the $200-300 range as they are already paying you but don't screw yourself on a 25 day month, that's a lot of work and you deserve to be paid such)...

The salaray is to manage the plane (maint, hangar, shop for best fuel, etc) and to fly say 10-14 days a month or whatever you figure. Then add the "bonus" pay as an "overtime" if you will.


WHAT EVER YOU DO...
GET IT IN WRITING with BOTH partners! Before any flying!

Make sure expenses are covered; hotels, meals, anything you can think of. Use the "but not limited to" clause in your contract. As long as its related to you flying the plane (or managing the plane) they need to pay for it.

As far as per diem, $100 -$150 seems kind of high for pistons and high even for a lot of Jet operators. $75 can get you a good day's food in most areas of the US, more $ for Mexico. But if its just REGIONAL flying then you can be the judge as to how much you need to eat in your area.

Hope if helps. PM if you have any questions, I'm not on here too much...

- Poe
 
Citationkid said:
$900 a week is the cap or the most he could make in a week. The guarenteed money is 10 days per month, which would be $3000 per month or $36,000 per year, which is not very high. That comes out to $18,000 per year per partner.




If you are going to charge by the hour you would want to charge by the time away from home, not the flight time. This isn't the airlines. He could do a 100 mile trip, sit for two days and fly home. That would be two hours of pay for two days of work by your logic. That doesn't sound like good business for the pilot does it:) If he does three flights a week he would probally be looking at about eight hours per day of duty time, which is what his pay would be based off of. At $900 per week and 32 hours of work that is about $28 per hour, which is by no means a lot.


Alex.
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OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.
 
MFT1Air said:
OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.
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See, your argument is he's not qualified for the position, not the pay issue itself. For managing 2 airplanes, and being on call the whole month, and being the sole pilot, he should be paid accordingly. Personally, I would not manage 2 airplanes and be on call as the sole pilot forever for $36K. It would have to be quite a bit more.

Since he has a huge learning curve, then yes, he needs to make sure he knows what he is getting in to. To say he should undercut what the services rendered would/should cost due to him being low time, that is doing a disservice to him and everybody following him. I'm trying to avoid all the cliches about undercutting the industry, lowering the bar, etc., but what you are suggesting is based on all your government experience. This is not a lowest bidder operation, or shouldn't be anyways.
 
MFT1Air said:
OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.
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With all your experience in the corporate world of aviation, what kind of money should this guy make then? This is exactly what caused the big argument in the other thread. Why should he sell himself short?

Experience is worth a lot, but judgment is worth A LOT more in my opinion. I've flown with guys with 20,000+ hours who have some horrible judgment, and quite frankly it amazes me that they've made it as far as they have without killing themselves. Besides, many Part 91 corporate pilots are hired for their personality, character, and integrity more than they are their flight experience (within reason of course). Go read the latest Professional Pilot Magazine which profiles the Valero Energy flight department. FO hired on at around 1000 hours TT in the G450/550. Do you think they low balled him on pay because of his low time? Highly doubtful.
 
Stone Cold said:
See, your argument is he's not qualified for the position, not the pay issue itself. For managing 2 airplanes, and being on call the whole month, and being the sole pilot, he should be paid accordingly. Personally, I would not manage 2 airplanes and be on call as the sole pilot forever for $36K. It would have to be quite a bit more.

Since he has a huge learning curve, then yes, he needs to make sure he knows what he is getting in to. To say he should undercut what the services rendered would/should cost due to him being low time, that is doing a disservice to him and everybody following him. I'm trying to avoid all the cliches about undercutting the industry, lowering the bar, etc., but what you are suggesting is based on all your government experience. This is not a lowest bidder operation, or shouldn't be anyways.
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Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.

Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well. ;)
 
MFT1Air said:
OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.
Click to expand...

Yes. $36,000 a year is not a lot of money for a profesional pilot. Like my last post pointed out, it only amounts to about $28 per hour. If they don't want to pay that large of a retainer that's fine, they just don't get priority over other flying. I like JDE's question, what do you think he should get paid?

Alex.
 
MFT1Air said:
Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.

Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well. ;)
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That's what you would do if you had these airplanes and needed to go some place. Apparently, they are wanting a full time pilot to fly their airplanes to get them from point A to point B with points C, D and whatever other point they want, in there, safely. That is what I am basing this off of.

I don't care if he flies 2 hours a month or 100, if he is their pilot, then he is considered full time. Period. My last rotation, out of 20 days, I flew 2.5 hours and had 1 overnight. I still received my full pay and everything my contract entitles. Why, since I didn't fly very much should I get paid this? Because I was there for the company and only the company. This is what a full time contract pilot does.

I'm just glad there aren't more owners with your attitude out there. It's hard enough to be paid a decent wage out there.

Oh, and if you want an A&P, go find one. I don't turn wrenches, I fly airplanes. Hats off to those who have both and do both. I know quite a few of them are abused, and don't fly as much as they might want to due to being in the hangar fixing airplanes.

I also like the question asked....what do you think a pilot, managing 2 airplanes (doesn't matter if it's a glider or Learjet, both have inspections, etc., to keep up with), and flying both for 2 different guys, on an on-call basis 24/7, should be paid. Don't think about mentioning TT or anything else, as that is not relevant.
 
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