Trying to fly for the military

[mhcasey]

It's disturbing to see excellent guidance and mentorship provided by someone like Hacker who espouses a true Warrior-Ethos mentality - someone who puts country and duty and the mission above one's desire to selfishly operate an aircraft purely for personal reasons - ignored.

If I defined my military experience by flight time alone, I'd feel I had been cheated. Being led by, and leading, the men and women in our military was an honor that simply strapping on an aircraft couldn't come close to. Operating some machine is a simple, simple task compared to the complexities involved in military leadership.

I'm sure there are plenty of other low-time inexperienced non-military fools out there like myself who have just kept their mouths shut, and appreciate the opinions of the experienced guys around here.

 

[bunk22]

ehh, I've flown in bad wx, to short strips with no go around, in the 1900 and the 207, I've flown in weather that would make the coast guard cringe (they actually turned around, and we made it in to Sitka). Ice, piss poor equipment, I flew some divers back to kodiak state at less than tree top level in brutal turbulence because they couldn't go high without suffering the consequences, etc. I've never been in the military however, so comparison is merely academic to at this point (give me a year or two to finish college, then I'll be off to OCS). However, I've only been shot at on the job a few times, and not every time, so that's also a factor.

Sounds scary .................................................................................sorry, fell asleep reading the post. There is no comparison, period. From the competition in flight school, ground jobs, combat time (for some), BS of the military, etc. Granted bush flying might be exciting but if military aircraft are turning back for wx, aircraft emergency, or whatever, there are rules, regs, SOP, NATOPS, to follow. I get these students with prior civilian experience and none impress to the point where I say, wow, civilian flying is where it's at. Get back to us if you ever make it to flight school and get through. Then you can offer a story that might impress. However, if you would like, please offer us some of your exploits over at www.airwarriors.com, a site full of Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Gaurd aviators. I'm sure your experience and stories would be welcome Plus, it's a site about Naval aviation, what you want to be. Good info. Just be careful with attitude, wannabe's with tudes doesn't always go over well.

 

[bunk22]

I have also had a FAQ with a AC-130U pilot. His rank is captain and he has less than a thousand hours. The military has some cool aircraft but I think there is alot of BS involved that just wouldn't make a ten year contract worth fulfilling.

Quality versus quantity. I've seen some military pilots do some things that have made me question their quality. The PC-12s around HRT have landed gear up and their is one that is totalled in a hanger on HRT from a landing where the pilot forgot to flare. I've heard a pavelow pilot pullout onto the active runway without a clearance from the tower to do so. I've seen some stuff pilots and crewmembers write up in the 781 A's that make you question their ability to even operate the aircrafts systems properly.

Like to see any civilian flying that equals what an AC-130 does on a mission. Two, unless you've seen the SRB findings, hard to say why an aircraft and crew had a mishap. All sorts of reasons and just looking at the number of GA mishaps monthly demonstrates exactly which type of flying is safer, both in combat and non-combat.

I'm in the Air Force and my job deals directly with military pilots. So I kind of know "how it is in the military". My interactions with military pilots has made me not even want to fly for the military. What "they do during their non-flying time" is goofing off back at the OSS, taking two hour lunches, and shopping at the BX. I do know what that BS is. Have you ever heard of BOHICA ? When you try to put "talked to a guy?" in that context, that guy is you and that 15E pilot.

Dealing directly doesn't mean you understand what they do, flying wise specifically. I've heard the same stuff over the years in the Navy. I've seen my mechs work on an engine in heat, cold, rain, dealing directly through them but still don't really have an understanding of how they do it. Being that I don't do it, I'm not sure how they deal with the ########, the work hours, the pay, etc. Works both ways.

 

[Ian_J]

I'm in the Air Force and my job deals directly with military pilots. So I kind of know "how it is in the military". My interactions with military pilots has made me not even want to fly for the military. What "they do during their non-flying time" is goofing off back at the OSS, taking two hour lunches, and shopping at the BX. I do know what that BS is. Have you ever heard of BOHICA ? When you try to put "talked to a guy?" in that context, that guy is you and that 15E pilot.

Interesting that Hacker has a different take than you. I wonder why.

I'm sure there are plenty of other low-time inexperienced non-military fools out there like myself who have just kept their mouths shut, and appreciate the opinions of the experienced guys around here.

Absolutely - there is always just a small select group that talks about things they know nothing about.

 

[pilotben1986]

OMG, I cant believe this is still going on! I wake up this morning and this is what I find. we are getting way off track here. Look, like I said I was just expressing my opinion wrong or right the military isnt perfect and neither is civilian;there are positives and negatives to both sides and we all view different situations in different ways.

some of you guys dont fly civilian so you dont have a clue!

you might know somethings just like we might know a thing or two...
you guys are really defensive.

 

[frog_flyer]

I'm sure there are plenty of other low-time inexperienced non-military fools out there like myself who have just kept their mouths shut, and appreciate the opinions of the experienced guys around here.

Shut up and color, LT.





PS- if you don't come back with some good news re: 6 Dec, I'm going to punch you in the ovary. The left one.

 

[pilotben1986]

I believe how we log our flight time is different as well. The flying, the missions, the conditions are often not comparable either. Flying to the carrier (especially at night), a strike mission, tanker mission in bad weather, rescue mission in bad wx, etc. Certain civilian flying is certainly no doubt intense but there is nothing in the world like military flying.

You're right there are things you guys do that we would never, but there is also certain flying that we do that you guys would never.

Probably why some of the airline hire military pilots with less flight time over their civilian counterparts with similar flight time. If a military pilot wants good flight time, they need to go to the VT's, specifically primary flight training as part of a squadron, not the wing. For those aviators, 1500-1800 in three years is doable which is very hard to do in three years in the fleet.

The reason the military pilots get hired with fewer time isnt because of their experience and training; it's because in the civilian world getting a flying job is very competitive and it is all about who know not your experience or what you know or what you can do. They really just need a body that can fill the squares and a seat and to sit there and keep their mouth shut. The way the military gets into those positions, and we all know how, is through the good ol boy system were you flew with a guy in the military who separated and now fly’s for a company and he recommends you and puts in a bunch of good words and then it just makes it harder for us guys who actually work our butts off to get in those positions.

I have to go but I will say more on this later

 

[SteveC]

The way the military gets into those positions, and we all know how, is through the good ol boy system were you flew with a guy in the military who separated and now fly’s for a company and he recommends you and puts in a bunch of good words and then it just makes it harder for us guys who actually work our butts off to get in those positions.

:whatever:

I think I may just have to permanently quit listening to anything you have to say. These prevent me from saying more.

 

[bunk22]

OMG, I cant believe this is still going on! I wake up this morning and this is what I find. we are getting way off track here. Look, like I said I was just expressing my opinion wrong or right the military isnt perfect and neither is civilian;there are positives and negatives to both sides and we all view different situations in different ways.

some of you guys dont fly civilian so you dont have a clue!

you might know somethings just like we might know a thing or two...
you guys are really defensive.

Not defensive at all. Simply correcting someone giving absolutely bad gouge. You got called on it and are obviously defensive about it. Why keep bringing it up otherwise? The only ones who know about military flying are those who have done it. Some of us have even done GA or Commercial flying as well. So there is some knowledge base on both sides.

 

[bunk22]

The reason the military pilots get hired with fewer time isnt because of their experience and training; it's because in the civilian world getting a flying job is very competitive and it is all about who know not your experience or what you know or what you can do. They really just need a body that can fill the squares and a seat and to sit there and keep their mouth shut. The way the military gets into those positions, and we all know how, is through the good ol boy system were you flew with a guy in the military who separated and now fly’s for a company and he recommends you and puts in a bunch of good words and then it just makes it harder for us guys who actually work our butts off to get in those positions.

I have to go but I will say more on this later

Yeah, the military pilots experience has nothing to do with getting hired It seems to me that regardless of the background, the airlines are competitive and is often a good ole boys club. Folks from both sides get hired for that reason yet the military pilots have less flight time, probably for a reason. Doesn't mean there aren't good civilian pilots...there are good and bad in both civilian and military. The experience of military flying is the big difference.

 

[Ian_J]

OMG, I cant believe this is still going on! I wake up this morning and this is what I find. we are getting way off track here. Look, like I said I was just expressing my opinion wrong or right the military isnt perfect and neither is civilian;there are positives and negatives to both sides and we all view different situations in different ways.

some of you guys dont fly civilian so you dont have a clue!

you might know somethings just like we might know a thing or two...
you guys are really defensive.

I flew both, but that isn't the point. A penis measuring contest between military and civilian pilots isn't the point either. The point is questioning why people serve, why it is a bad idea to join for flight time alone, and an evolved point has become if someone doesn't actually do a specific job, they most likely don't know what they think they know about it.

As an example, I used to be enlisted, and had certain views of officers. Once I became an officer, turns out most of those views were dead wrong.

 

[derg]

Going into the military to learn how to fly for the airlines is about like applying for a job at Ruth's Chris so you can work at hot dog on a stick at the mall!

 

[bravodelta79]

Going into the military to learn how to fly for the airlines is about like applying for a job at Ruth's Chris so you can work at hot dog on a stick at the mall!

Dibs on that in my sig!!

Hahaha.

(Speaking of which, people keep asking me if I'll want to fly for the airlines when finished with USAF pilot training. I just ask them, "Why would I want do to that?")

 

[ppragman]

I flew both, but that isn't the point. A penis measuring contest between military and civilian pilots isn't the point either. The point is questioning why people serve, why it is a bad idea to join for flight time alone, and an evolved point has become if someone doesn't actually do a specific job, they most likely don't know what they think they know about it.

As an example, I used to be enlisted, and had certain views of officers. Once I became an officer, turns out most of those views were dead wrong.

That's not what this is about? Dammit, I just bought a ruler.

 

[Hacker15e]

I'm in the Air Force and my job deals directly with military pilots. So I kind of know "how it is in the military". My interactions with military pilots has made me not even want to fly for the military. What "they do during their non-flying time" is goofing off back at the OSS, taking two hour lunches, and shopping at the BX. I do know what that BS is.

Very simple way to sort this out with two questions:

What is your AFSC, and what MAJCOM are you assigned to?

By the way...I get a weather brief before every sortie...and the weather guys work down the hall from my office....and see them dicking around in between observations and briefings...but that in no way makes me qualified to comment on what their career is like. I could say the same thing for the intel analyst that briefs me before every sortie....or the crew chief that meets me at the jet before I launch and when I recover. I see the life support techs before and after every flight, too.

Exactly none of this "experience" give me any ability to speak with any kind of actual knowledge or authority about "what it's like" to have a job in any of these career fields.

It's interesting...I used to be a Maintenance Officer before I started flying, and I had a DRAMATICALLY different view of pilots then compared to the 'reality' of now. I pretty much thought that they just showed up at the jet, flew it (broke it!), and then went to go grab a beer when they were done. That's because pretty much everything pilots do (in the fighter world, that is) outside the cockpit is performed behind the doors of a vault. All of the hours of planning, creating mission products, briefing, and debriefing that take place before and after that 1.5 in the cockpit go competely unseen by anyone not directly involved in that flight. Once I got to UPT, I realized that I had a very inaccurate view of those "zipper-suited sun gods" whom I'd spent a couple of years disparaging.

This is similar to what I experience when I take someone on an incentive ride -- they are surprised by how involved the process is from beginning to end. The usually leave the flight with a new view (dare I say 'appreciation'?) of what the job of a pilot is.

Bottom line, you're really only qualified to speak about what you know about. Personally, I can't even speak with any kind of accuracy or authority on anything outside of my direct experience. I only know a little about what a heavy driver does...and that's from limited experience flying with them and interacting with them.

So, I'm curious as to what AFSCs you guys have. 2A5X1, I'm guessing that you're a maintainer like your 'nym suggests -- I'm really curious as to what shop you work in and if you're an airman/NCO/SNCO. Peoples' AFSCs place a significant shade on how operators are viewed.

Pilotben1986, how about you? What was/is your AFSC and MAJCOM?

 

[Hacker15e]

The reason the military pilots get hired with fewer time isnt because of their experience and training; it's because in the civilian world getting a flying job is very competitive and it is all about who know not your experience or what you know or what you can do. They really just need a body that can fill the squares and a seat and to sit there and keep their mouth shut. The way the military gets into those positions, and we all know how, is through the good ol boy system were you flew with a guy in the military who separated and now fly’s for a company and he recommends you and puts in a bunch of good words and then it just makes it harder for us guys who actually work our butts off to get in those positions.

This is where you've officially jumped the tracks with your "knowledge".

 

[bunk22]

This is where you've officially jumped the tracks with your "knowledge".

Funny stuff there.

 

[pilotben1986]

ok jeez sorry guys, I see you are all calming down about this so I guess I should too. I am not trying to change the guys mind here and if he really wants to do this path I doubt anything I could say would... Really think back to how your career started in the military. Could someone have talked you out of it? Probably not but at least the guy got to see two different worlds throwing out two different view points and I think it makes for a better thread dont you??:laff:. They couldnt talk me out of joining the Air Force and I am really glad I did, and really the reason I left the Academy was because I already had one degree down and another almost done. If I went the Academy route I would have had to put in 4-5 years plus PTS and those years at USAFA dont count toward your time in service, and they said I would sign a 10 year commitment after all that. OTS would have been a faster route but I really wanted that name behind my name ya know. We all like flying and thats why we are here so I support the guy in any choice he makes...lets hope its a flying one! Oh and if you know or even think you know something more than another person try not being jerks when correcting them especially when you are representing you, your unit, your branch, or the military... c'mon I know we all learned that one, just be cool about situation and this kind of stuff wont go on for ever. I'll try not being so bad either.

 

[pilotben1986]

It would have been better if I got a response like

"Well I can see where you are coming from on a few of those issues and I can see a couple that arent quite on but here is the way I see things and here are some of my personal experience...."

That would have been a bit better of a response and all these people wouldnt have become so defensive. I saw both military and civilian became very defensive in this forum and there shouldnt have been a fight between us at all. You guys come from us and we come from you... some civilian pilots become military and some military become civilian. There may be a federal boundary line but we a share the same sky.

 

[pilotben1986]

I shouldnt have been the first to try and make peace. I was kinda hoping one of the officers would have been saying these things and not me but someone needs to and no one stepped up. Lets just get along... ok