Southwest tries to redecorate LGA tower

[Inverted]

I swear you can learn everything on YouTube and it’s freakin awesome. Here’s a guy walking us through a 5-part series on the 737 flap system and opening inspection panels and getting his hands on everything as he goes. But I thought this video was the most relevant:

View: https://youtu.be/Wx3JldRu3VM?si=8ZfpAUTwOpBa2QLV


My take is that between speed brakes, landing gear and flaps, there is probably some truth to the assertion that the flap system is the least robust of the three - reason being that downstream of the PDU in the gear bay you have this Rube Goldberg contraption of torque tubes, gear boxes, worm gears and tracks that can bind up or jam if subject to excessive aerodynamic loading.

BUT - I would also venture to say that since Boeing has had 60 years to gather data on the 737, their flap extension speeds are probably pretty well tested at this point and they haven’t reduced the operating limitations. So in absence of an actual feedback loop from your airline’s maintenance department saying “here’s how many hours we are supposed to get out of these systems according to the manufacturer and here’s what YOU knuckleheads are making us change them at instead” then I would continue extending them any time below the published operating limitation and not give it a second thought.

The argument “You can extend them at X but I extend them at Y instead to reduce wear and tear” doesn’t really make sense, because airplanes are complex systems of thousands of interdependent components that are all wearing at different rate, and they all must be tracked by mx. Every time you raise and lower the gear you’re creating wear and tear, and every time you take off and land you’re wearing and tearing the airframe (another cycle towards its eventual fate in the desert).

So be mindful of the operating limitations, be especially careful with the operating limitations on the systems that are probably the weak links, but then still use those systems as they were intended to be used.

That is a fantastic breakdown. His channel is actually really really good.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I am comfortable on the 737, thanks.

You argue it any way you like, but the unstable approach numbers don't lie.

So you never extend flaps as you are slowing?

I do, but try to do flaps 1 within 10-15 kts of Up speed. I’ll use speed brakes if necessary to aid in the speed reduction first, and then flaps. If it’s necessary, I’ll use gear. Usually not needed unless ATC left you high and/or fast.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It is cool you flew wth somebody that let you use it. Flaps 2 is fine, although if I need to slow more than flaps 1 I just use 5.

Please tell me you aren’t using flaps 2? That’s willfully ignoring the FH. It clearly says do not use flaps 2.

 

[Inverted]

I do

Then by your definition, you are using the flaps as a speed brake.

 

[Inverted]

Please tell me you aren’t using flaps 2? That’s willfully ignoring the FH. It clearly says do not use flaps 2.

Nope, but I know a lot of people who use it. I use 5 if I need more than 1, as I said in the sentence you quoted.

 

[mikecweb]

I hope my Alaska pilots this morning on the way to MCI figure out what flaps they can or can’t use before TOD.

 

[Inverted]

I hope my Alaska pilots this morning on the way to MCI figure out what flaps they can or can’t use before TOD.

No promises.

 

[MikeD]

Everyone flies the 737 differently.

I think that's been clearly established.

When I flew the -200, there was no such restriction on Flaps 2. And if Boeing says you can't use "Flaps 2", I'd love to see the "receipt" on that from Boeing.

Yup. Not sure why the restriction exists for AS.

The other thing with the Jurassic and Classic is inflight use of the speedbrakes does little to nothing for you, besides make the airplane shake. Being dependent on those in any way will not pay off in those versions.

 

[MikeD]

What if, while at flaps 1 and selecting flaps 5…..you momentarily paused in the flaps 2 detent, then went to flaps 5; would that be living on the edge?

Then you have SWA guys who like to just go right to flaps 5 as the first flaps call, no flaps 1.

 

[Inverted]

Yup. Not sure why the restriction exists for AS.

The other thing with the Jurassic and Classic is inflight use of the speedbrakes does little to nothing for you, besides make the airplane shake. Being dependent on those in any way will not pay off in those versions.

We didn't pay for flaps 2 speed tape scheduling. The notch still exists and the airplane can go to flaps 2 without issue. The airplane is placarded for it, but our FH prohibits it.

 

[Toobdrvr]

I could start a parallel debate for the 320:

Flaps “1+F” on approach at an intermediate speed (210-ish)?

Works great! Lasts long time!!!

 

[mikecweb]

We didn't pay for flaps 2 speed tape scheduling. The notch still exists and the airplane can go to flaps 2 without issue. The airplane is placarded for it, but our FH prohibits it.

Assuming FH is “Flight Handbook” how does one say well I used them last flight if it’s “prohibited”?

 

[Inverted]

Assuming FH is “Flight Handbook” how does one say well I used them last flight if it’s “prohibited”?

Good question. I take “should” as if you can. I take “prohibited” as never lol. I think it’s yet another holdout from the classics as you could use 2 all day with them. I personally don’t see a need and even if I did, I am not allowed to so I don’t, but I hear things.

 

[Inverted]

I could start a parallel debate for the 320:

Flaps “1+F” on approach at an intermediate speed (210-ish)?

Works great! Lasts long time!!!

Yep I knew a lot of 1+Fers during my time on the Airbus. That seemed to be standard practice for US Air guys.

 

[MikeD]

We didn't pay for flaps 2 speed tape scheduling. The notch still exists and the airplane can go to flaps 2 without issue. The airplane is placarded for it, but our FH prohibits it.

Good question. I take “should” as if you can. I take “prohibited” as never lol. I think it’s yet another holdout from the classics as you could use 2 all day with them. I personally don’t see a need and even if I did, I am not allowed to so I don’t, but I hear things.

So it still functionally works, but there’s just no reference data for it at your shop. I can understand that.

Flaps 2 is really just a holdover from the 727. On that bird, Flaps 2 was the first setting selected where you got much more roll control, as that was the first setting that unlocked the outboard ailerons, but extended only half of the LE slats. Whereas Flaps 5 was the first setting where all the slats extended.

 

[arkflyr]

We didn't pay for flaps 2 speed tape scheduling. The notch still exists and the airplane can go to flaps 2 without issue. The airplane is placarded for it, but our FH prohibits it.

There could be a chance that your bosses are still hung up on crossover speed from the classic days. When those speeds were introduced there was no speed published for flaps 2 and it fell out of use.

Crossover speeds went away after the rudder PCU was redesigned and I’m pretty sure they weren’t required for the 100/200. Just the classic 300/400/500 had to live with them.

And as another example of change when I started flying the 300 and the NGs, we couldn’t use flaps and speed brakes at the same time in any of them. Within a few weeks of the last classic being parked we could all of a sudden magically use the speed brake to flaps 10 on the NG and MAX.

 

[MikeD]

And as another example of change when I started flying the 300 and the NGs, we couldn’t use flaps and speed brakes at the same time in any of them. Within a few weeks of the last classic being parked we could all of a sudden magically use the speed brake to flaps 10 on the NG and MAX.

Yup. Same on the Jurassic, not supposed to use speed brakes with flaps extended. Hence why I never use the speed brakes for anything other than arming them for landing, aside from the fact they aren’t exceptionally effective anyway. I just plan speed/altitude reductions as if they don’t exist.

With the NGs and on, they can be used and are seemingly more effective anyway.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Yep I knew a lot of 1+Fers during my time on the Airbus. That seemed to be standard practice for US Air guys.

Ha! “1+Fer”! I might get the tattoo!!

VERY rarely used, but a good tool for when “1” isn’t enough, but “2” is too many.

I just recently got back on the 320 at my “new” job, but when I asked my OE instructor about their policy, he asked “How do you even do that!?”

 

[CFI A&P]

I hope my Alaska pilots this morning on the way to MCI figure out what flaps they can or can’t use before TOD.

Probably going to have to divert to Topeka or Lincoln for the longer runway.

Also, does anyone else feel like they could pass the MV at over there after following along to Flap Talk ?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

This 737 sounds horrible ;-)

Depends. Did you grow up wanting to be a pilot? Or a glorified computer operator?