Oh Aviate 1

[ClearedForOption]

I think that the real discussion here is more subtle than the same 'piling on CC thing' that happens to go on in just about every thread.

There are a lot of issues that can stem from these 'for profit' ab-initio programs, this is history both echoing and rhyming.

Really, the one thing that stands out to me is this: (from the reddit post)

UAA fosters a culture of intimidation. Many students have been let go after speaking out or complaining to hire-ups for vague reasons, and therefore students currently at the school are too scared to speak out. School management constantly has all eyes and ears open for any sign of dissent or criticism and is looking over everyone’s shoulder.

The questions to ask are:

1.) Is a single source Reddit post really journalism? (or sour grapes?)
2.) What EXACTLY is the contract between the student and the trade school? Those of us that have been around the block a couple of times (and also have been 'ripped off' by operators at the beginning of our careers) know that there is a shady money-grab side to aviation. Follow the money.
3.) This anon 'whistle-blower': what does their training history show? Why all the complaints about the length of the course? Is there an actual training deficiency problem? Are they teaching people to be professional aviators? (are the just teaching the test?)

There is more to this story than what can be summed up in an online rant.

What all of this tells me is that aviation, in this country, is still not set up/ready for a 100% civilian ab-initio pilot pipeline program without more structure. If that's what the industry is hoping for as the 'magic' solution to the pilot-labor crisis, then it's falling short of expectations. From all sides. Possible shady management. Students that might have whatever today's version of SJS is. (or whatever we end up calling it) Expectations of results that aren't realistic (Sold a pipe-dream from a recruiter) to a misunderstanding of what probationary employee means. (rocking the boat vs. hitting the books) We don't know.

But it's sure gonna be fun to talk about and speculate on.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You chucking rocks at kids who are able to get into this profession because of rich parents is absolutely perfect. No words.

Sit this one out my dude.

You’re correct in that I do not discriminate. I’m not taking a jab at rich parents, rather, the young adults coming into this career who during *training* are already complaining.

 

[MikeD]

The CFIs of these flight school planes, especially at 1am shooting approaches or night work at a number of uncontrolled fields here in southern AZ, they are pretty chatty in CTAF amongst one another, and even same school planes, over all kinds of subjects: getting hired out, interviewing for other places, the grind of the job, griping about their school or some of the other local flight schools and academies, you name it. I’ll have to ask one of the Varneys if they know of this and if they’ll anonymously confirm or deny any of this.

 

[tcco94]

I think that the real discussion here is more subtle than the same 'piling on CC thing' that happens to go on in just about every thread.

There are a lot of issues that can stem from these 'for profit' ab-initio programs, this is history both echoing and rhyming.

Really, the one thing that stands out to me is this: (from the reddit post)

UAA fosters a culture of intimidation. Many students have been let go after speaking out or complaining to hire-ups for vague reasons, and therefore students currently at the school are too scared to speak out. School management constantly has all eyes and ears open for any sign of dissent or criticism and is looking over everyone’s shoulder.

The questions to ask are:

1.) Is a single source Reddit post really journalism? (or sour grapes?)
2.) What EXACTLY is the contract between the student and the trade school? Those of us that have been around the block a couple of times (and also have been 'ripped off' by operators at the beginning of our careers) know that there is a shady money-grab side to aviation. Follow the money.
3.) This anon 'whistle-blower': what does their training history show? Why all the complaints about the length of the course? Is there an actual training deficiency problem? Are they teaching people to be professional aviators? (are the just teaching the test?)

There is more to this story than what can be summed up in an online rant.

What all of this tells me is that aviation, in this country, is still not set up/ready for a 100% civilian ab-initio pilot pipeline program without more structure. If that's what the industry is hoping for as the 'magic' solution to the pilot-labor crisis, then it's falling short of expectations. From all sides. Possible shady management. Students that might have whatever today's version of SJS is. (or whatever we end up calling it) Expectations of results that aren't realistic (Sold a pipe-dream from a recruiter) to a misunderstanding of what probationary employee means. (rocking the boat vs. hitting the books) We don't know.

But it's sure gonna be fun to talk about and speculate on.

It’s hard to sit around here and defend CC when the man types up comments like

“Or yikes, might not make it to United in 2 yrs.

Where’s the world’s smallest violin when you need one, for complaining about the program of the century.”

“It falls 100% on these kids entering the industry to know and do their research ahead of time.” - comment about a program just created and once in another post claimed as ‘program of the century’ ????

“Let’s face it, we are starting to run out of the true passion crowd and reaching the rich parent crowd and kids who have nothing better to do that think, oh sweet I can make 400k+? Sign me up.” -wildly ignorant jealous comment

“I entered based on passion. I knew what the job entailed.” -another ignorant assumption


But hey - we totally had a logical mature conversation here and it’s us just piling on CC like normal. Argue that fight - the floor is yours.

 

[tcco94]

You’re correct in that I do not discriminate. I’m not taking a jab at rich parents, rather, the young adults coming into this career who during *training* are already complaining.

Do you have any actual evidence to back this up or is this just another CC assumption? I’d love to see the data that pilots today are rich spoiled kids and passionless!

 

[tcco94]

Yes, continued.

The second question is better left for over beers as I have visibility on a number of sides to the topic and (a) I don't want to get quoted and (b) if I divulge how I know certain things on the internet, this number will triple this number in a few days:

View attachment 70190

Somewhere in there was a message asking for tips on my interview 4 years ago. This whole time I thought wtf did I do to get left on read by Doug!!!

 

[podrick]

then later said “recruiters don’t lie”…

Where did I say that..

 

[podrick]

But hey - we totally had a logical mature conversation here and it’s us just piling on CC like normal. Argue that fight - the floor is yours.

Other than being against what CC is saying, I’m kinda confused on what your take is. The author of that Reddit post is basically saying that Aviate is doing all these things on purpose, and knowingly lied to them beforehand. They’re definitely some valid complaints, but probably not any different from any struggles other flight schools are having as well.

That’s where I think the issue with the article is, that they imply that they were lied to on purpose or that United is somehow negligent for a ppl taking a couple months longer.

 

[tcco94]

Other than being against what CC is saying, I’m kinda confused on what your take is. The author of that Reddit post is basically saying that Aviate is doing all these things on purpose, and knowingly lied to them beforehand. They’re definitely some valid complaints, but probably not any different from any struggles other flight schools are having as well.

That’s where I think the issue with the article is, that they imply that they were lied to on purpose or that United is somehow negligent for a ppl taking a couple months longer.

My point was to CC’s original post was not anything educational or fair to someone with valid complaints. I’m not saying they intentionally lied to recruits. I was simply stating that a student is upset their timelines aren’t honored the organized flight school is clearly not organized with what was published. Which is valid.

What’s immature and unproductive is saying let’s get out a small violin you aren’t at United in 2 years, your parents are rich, you’re a snobby kid who is unmotivated in this career. I was motivated and had many mentors so I knew everything at your age.

See how terrible that sounds? I’m on here shooting the • with CC and joking with him more often than not, but the fact people want to be in his corner on this one is crazy to me.

Obviously we all know how flight schools go and what recruiters say with timelines, staffing turnover, culture etc. Not every student pilot does. Not every student pilot can find credible mentors and or research, especially with a program that has been around what, a year? So calling these kids spoiled rich unmotivated children is quite a childish thing to do, imo. I can feel for their frustration and yes, maybe, some of it is unwarranted. But we never really had that fair conversation from the start…

 

[derg]

Oh no. It might take 5 months to finish a Private. Or 12 months to go 0 to Commercial. Or yikes, might not make it to United in 2 yrs.

Where’s the world’s smallest violin when you need one, for complaining about the program of the century.

United Aviate Academy Faces Concerning Allegations - Live and Let's Fly

A concerning set of allegations have been levied against the United Aviate Academy, an in-house flight training school at United Airlines.

liveandletsfly.com

Sounds like an average day at Riddle.

Well, there's your first setback kids.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Do you have any actual evidence to back this up or is this just another CC assumption? I’d love to see the data that pilots today are rich spoiled kids and passionless!

Just an educated guess. If one is passionate, you would think they’d research their career field inside out, including its ups and downs. One of the biggest research areas also includes flight training, its drawbacks, and reasons for delays.

 

[Richman]

You heard it here first, WHERE'S MAH SIZZLER?!

Do not use that name in vain.

 

[///AMG]

In CC's defense, and I'd also say I am a little leery of making broad generational statements........but I think it is pretty common in this current generation of young adults to be conditioned to and expect, a packaged deal of some sort. They grew up with things like Grubhub, Uber, and any other list of hyper-subsidized conveniences. Why wouldn't this be another? After older Gen X and boomers, is there anyone more clueless to the reality behind wild social media/internet business claims (or claims in general)? That isn't really a dig at them, it is just the reality of what they have grown to be accustomed to. It said it on a clickable internet ad, how dare it not be true?

 

[tcco94]

In CC's defense, and I'd also say I am a little leery of making broad generational statements........but I think it is pretty common in this current generation of young adults to be conditioned to and expect, a packaged deal of some sort. They grew up with things like Grubhub, Uber, and any other list of hyper-subsidized conveniences. Why wouldn't this be another? After older Gen X and boomers, is there anyone more clueless to the reality behind wild social media/internet business claims (or claims in general)? That isn't really a dig at them, it is just the reality of what they have grown to be accustomed to. It said it on a clickable internet ad, how dare it not be true?

I don’t think the correlation is exactly the same, but bashing on youth’s character as lazy and motiveless for being frustrated they’ve realized this isn’t as advertised is pretty wild to me. I don’t even think this is a generational problem. You’re saying 20-30+ years ago everyone knew this was how deeply unorganized and off schedule flight schools were? Not sure I agree with that. Obviously this younger generation has issues with complaining. As for every generation, some of it is valid complaints. It’s only the older elders who say buck up and deal with it.

 

[KLB]

It is kind of SOP for the older generation to look at the younger generation as not as "good" as they are. We have to look at things through that lens. Society is ever evolving to make life easier. So of course the younger generation is more comfortable and expect that comfort more than the older generation.

My parents were teenagers at the height of segregation and the civil rights movement in Mississippi. I did not have to put up with as many barriers growing up as they did. I was more comfortable.

We also have revisionist history on how well we adapted to adverse situations when we were there age. Over 50% of the freshmen in my university Aviation program did not make it to graduation for a multitude of reasons.

The United Aviate program is still fairly new and there are a lot of kinks that still need to be ironed out.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don’t think the correlation is exactly the same, but bashing on youth’s character as lazy and motiveless for being frustrated they’ve realized this isn’t as advertised is pretty wild to me. I don’t even think this is a generational problem. You’re saying 20-30+ years ago everyone knew this was how deeply unorganized and off schedule flight schools were? Not sure I agree with that. Obviously this younger generation has issues with complaining. As for every generation, some of it is valid complaints. It’s only the older elders who say buck up and deal with it.

Yes dude. At least United is PROBABLY trying to follow the law.


My flight school was outright lying about being a VA benefits approved Part 141 school, when they were NOT 141 nor were they VA approved. I’m sure both are illegal to claim. The Feds and the military would not appreciate that.

I remember one veteran who was stuck in limbo “waiting” for his VA benefits to be approved for the flight school. It never happened.

Then there was the fact that on loan applications, they were putting Sim Center Inc. As it turned out, Sim Center was approved for educational loans. My school was not. They were using Sim Center as an illegal front, with the owner there pocketing $1000 per loan, and forwarding the rest to my school owner. This is illegal.



Sadly, this wasn’t even the worst Florida flight school operation. Remember Tab Express?



Most of this stuff can be researched out found online. Certainly, how many horror stories (and laws passed in some states!) have you seen as a result of flight schools taking 80 grand or more from flight students up front and going POOF.



Do these new entrants into United’s academy have any idea of this sort of past flight school history?

 

[tcco94]

Yes dude. At least United is PROBABLY trying to follow the law.


My flight school was outright lying about being a VA benefits approved Part 141 school, when they were NOT 141 nor were they VA approved. I’m sure both are illegal to claim. The Feds and the military would not appreciate that.

I remember one veteran who was stuck in limbo “waiting” for his VA benefits to be approved for the flight school. It never happened.

Then there was the fact that on loan applications, they were putting Sim Center Inc. As it turned out, Sim Center was approved for educational loans. My school was not. They were using Sim Center as an illegal front, with the owner there pocketing $1000 per loan, and forwarding the rest to my school owner. This is illegal.



Sadly, this wasn’t even the worst Florida flight school operation. Remember Tab Express?



Most of this stuff can be researched out found online. Certainly, how many horror stories (and laws passed in some states!) have you seen as a result of flight schools taking 80 grand or more from flight students up front and going POOF.



Do these new entrants into United’s academy have any idea of this sort of past flight school history?

Where did breaking the law and VA benefits come up? Not one comment in here discussed either of those.

How does one find information about training delays at United’s academy when there was no academy prior to you applying? Sure you can look up reviews on other schools but how would a person with no knowledge in this field have any idea to draw a conclusion from a completely different school to what this brand new United school is telling them? Makes no sense.

 

[SteveC]

It is kind of SOP for the older generation to look at the younger generation as not as "good" as they are. We have to look at things through that lens. Society is ever evolving to make life easier. So of course the younger generation is more comfortable and expect that comfort more than the older generation.

My parents were teenagers at the height of segregation and the civil rights movement in Mississippi. I did not have to put up with as many barriers growing up as they did. I was more comfortable.

We also have revisionist history on how well we adapted to adverse situations when we were there age. Over 50% of the freshmen in my university Aviation program did not make it to graduation for a multitude of reasons.

The United Aviate program is still fairly new and there are a lot of kinks that still need to be ironed out.

Well, we had to follow The Greatest Generation, so we had that going for us…

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Where did breaking the law and VA benefits come up? Not one comment in here discussed either of those.

How does one find information about training delays at United’s academy when there was no academy prior to you applying? Sure you can look up reviews on other schools but how would a person with no knowledge in this field have any idea to draw a conclusion from a completely different school to what this brand new United school is telling them? Makes no sense.

Actually it does make sense. If they knew how bad things were, and the worse complaint these United Bloviators have are training delays, then perhaps they’d tone it down a notch and be thankful for just how good they have it in this hiring environment.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Actually it does make sense. If they knew how bad things were, and the worse complaint these United Bloviators have are training delays, then perhaps they’d tone it down a notch and be thankful for just how good they have it in this hiring environment.

I don't see how primary students have it good in this hiring environment. Pilot-friendly hiring climates are few, far between and above all, short; and this one will probably be over by the time they have all their certificates and ratings.