You're the FO...
- Thread starter CFI4life
- Start date
What if he's not verbally responding to your callouts as well as your initial "missed approach" call?
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
If he isn't responding to my calls at 1000 feet, 500 feet and 300 feet I would have all ready have taken the plane.
Same here. My friends dad flew for TWA and had a really cocky captain flying the last leg of a 4 day. Apparently he was coming in WAAAY high and hot on landing. His dad (the FO) brought up the notion of a GA several times with very negative feedback from the CA. After 3 trys he clicked the mic and annouced the go around. :rotfl: Can you imagine? That was in the 70's too!! He was pissed to say the least.
Cram, Climb, Clean. Call, Cool, in that order. If he's not responding, something is obviously wrong. If you start the go-around, and he finally responds, you will both have som 'splaining to do. Weather he lands, because you called the missed and started it, and he/she started yelling ,at which point you are in the right(saftey of flight), or the captain is dead, and now you have the airplane, and what you did was right, because he/she sure wasn't doing the flying. They are minimums for a reason.
pilotmg1501
Well-Known Member
If the captain hasn't been responding I would say "My controls going missed" and initiate the go around, you never know if he is alive let alone in any state to be continuing to fly the airplane....it would take some guts, but if you don't, you could become a smoking hole (Air Florida flight 90 anyone?)...you can explain yourself on the ground later....
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
You don't fight for the controls of a transport category airplane at minimums. You can force the issue as was mentioned above by calling for a go-around, and/or on an airplane with autothrottles hitting the TOGA button... but you don't fight for the airplane at 200 feet (or less). Keep in mind that in many long-body aircraft during CAT II and CAT III approaches the mains may touch the ground during the miss.
Pilotmg1501... what does Palm 90 have to do with go arounds?
Pilotmg1501... what does Palm 90 have to do with go arounds?
pilotmg1501
Well-Known Member
Palm 90 doesn't have anything to do with go-arounds, but rather with having the guts to speak up and take action as a first officer...the FO knew something wasn't right, yet they continued instead of taking action and aborting...
I still maintain that it is your responsibility as a First Officer to take over the airplane from an unresponsive Captain even if at minimums.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The question is, can you log it as PIC?
And just for the record, I would backhand the guy first while yelling "MORTAAALLLLL COMBAAATTTT!!!!" and then I would take the plane for the go around.
Speed Pilot
Brain Damaged
I'm thinking I'd be taking over. However I'm used to that being an option as an instructor. If I don't like what's happening I'm always ready to take over. However as Zap said, it's a transport category aircaft so I don't know how feasable that would be since I have no time in those.
When I was instructing for a part 141 school we had an assistant chief pilot that would discuss his technic of "taking over the aircraft" whenever he would check out a new instructor and on our yearly checks. The "technic" was to be used in the event a student freezes up on you. The "technic" included a karate chop directly to the throat and or a back hand to the face. Anyone who is coherent would naturally attempt to block it with their hands. This would give you a chance to take the plane........
anic: yeah, he was weird. But, there are some students I would have loved to try this "technic" on. But back to topic. What would you do if the CA still had not disengaged the autopilot @ or below 200 ft AGL? How long would you wait? Would you hit the button?
EDIT: I have been told by an old FSI instructor that most CAT I aircraft still on autopilot will do a slight pitch down as they cross over approx 50 ft AGL (the threshold)
Now I don't have any first hand experience flight testing autopilots between 50 ft AGL and the surface, but I could bet it would be a HELLOFA landing.
I'm with you on this one. At what point do you draw the line to take over for a Captain? I've got 0 time in a PIC/SIC environment, but if the Captain's doing something that's going to potentially damage the airplane or injure/kill people onboard, you can bet yourself that I would do something about it. What that something is, I don't know. It could be anything from making a radio call letting tower know we're going around to literally taking control of the plane and pushing the throttles forward.
You've got to think about each SIC individually though. Some guys I know would let the Captain bring them right into the ground. Others have strong personalities in the cockpit when it comes to decision making (even as an FO) which could potentially get them in the hot seat with a Captain one day. Coming from an instructing background, most of those guys would have the balls to take over which they've done before with students.
The transition from training to airlines is not smooth though. These CFIs aren't used to guys next to them who know what they're doing. They're used to the students, not 10,000 ATP who have 4000 hours in type.
It's actually a very interesting topic and is quite dynamic depending on the crew.
Cool? As is pull the seat cushion out?
What if he DOES respond? With something like, "Its ok, I got this!" or He says he has ground contact or claims to see the approach lights but you don't see anything?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
So what's the real question here?
Is it a matter of whether or not the Captain's fully lucid and hearing you?
... or that the Captain is just being a tool and ignoring you?
In a past life, we used the 'Two Challenge Rule'.
Assuming we had time, the first challenge was direct, clear, and just verbal.
If no response is received or the hazard still is a problem, a 'second challenge' is issued. This was a more firm, more overt verbal statement likely accompanied by physical stimulus, ie, a pat on the shoulder, or the arm, or whatever.
No response to that? "My aircraft."
This is assuming of course that suitable time exists.
So let's look at the real devil in the details here.
You hit 200 feet and see nada. No runway, no approach lights. You call 'Go Around' and get no response, or the Captain just ignores the calls and continues down the glideslope.
You get closer to the ground. At some point, you'll either
A) Break out into the clear in landing position
B) Break out into the clear with no real bearing/out of landing positioin
C) Never break out. Potentially break airplane.
That's a 33% chance you're NOT screwed.
Do you let it get that far?
I agree with Zap- fighting over the controls at low altitude is a BAAAAAAD idea. But how do you correct it?
Let's assume you land safely. What then? What if you go around, do so late, but manage a safe, normal go-around and divert or make a second approach. What then?
Is it a matter of whether or not the Captain's fully lucid and hearing you?
... or that the Captain is just being a tool and ignoring you?
In a past life, we used the 'Two Challenge Rule'.
Assuming we had time, the first challenge was direct, clear, and just verbal.
If no response is received or the hazard still is a problem, a 'second challenge' is issued. This was a more firm, more overt verbal statement likely accompanied by physical stimulus, ie, a pat on the shoulder, or the arm, or whatever.
No response to that? "My aircraft."
This is assuming of course that suitable time exists.
So let's look at the real devil in the details here.
You hit 200 feet and see nada. No runway, no approach lights. You call 'Go Around' and get no response, or the Captain just ignores the calls and continues down the glideslope.
You get closer to the ground. At some point, you'll either
A) Break out into the clear in landing position
B) Break out into the clear with no real bearing/out of landing positioin
C) Never break out. Potentially break airplane.
That's a 33% chance you're NOT screwed.
Do you let it get that far?
I agree with Zap- fighting over the controls at low altitude is a BAAAAAAD idea. But how do you correct it?
Let's assume you land safely. What then? What if you go around, do so late, but manage a safe, normal go-around and divert or make a second approach. What then?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Keep an eye outside, and make sure that you're aligned with the runway, otherwise you'll land in the weeds. Then when you get out of the airplane, you give that SOB a verbal tongue lashing the likes of which he's never seen.
I've heard of friends who said, "minimums" and had a captain say, "I've got the field in sight," then the FO looks outside and can't see anything. They survived, but don't fight it, the last thing you want to be doing is wrestling for the controls, or trying to initiate a Go-Around that neither of you are ready for. Say "Go Missed" or something to cover your ass on the CVR if you've got one, but I wouldn't call "missed" to tower, because the captain may be committed already and may not be able to go around. You don't want to miss below mins in IMC at some airports; your published missed may not provide terrain and obstruction clearance if initiated from below mins. I know for a fact on a few approaches if the field goes IFR between the MAP and the runway that following the published approach will put you into the hills, and you have to think about which way to turn if you lose sight of the field. Know the terrain, and then either verbally berate the CA, or if that doesn't work call prostandards when you get on the ground.
I've heard of friends who said, "minimums" and had a captain say, "I've got the field in sight," then the FO looks outside and can't see anything. They survived, but don't fight it, the last thing you want to be doing is wrestling for the controls, or trying to initiate a Go-Around that neither of you are ready for. Say "Go Missed" or something to cover your ass on the CVR if you've got one, but I wouldn't call "missed" to tower, because the captain may be committed already and may not be able to go around. You don't want to miss below mins in IMC at some airports; your published missed may not provide terrain and obstruction clearance if initiated from below mins. I know for a fact on a few approaches if the field goes IFR between the MAP and the runway that following the published approach will put you into the hills, and you have to think about which way to turn if you lose sight of the field. Know the terrain, and then either verbally berate the CA, or if that doesn't work call prostandards when you get on the ground.