You're a SouthernJets International 767ER....

There are no gremlins in a 767 that will cause all three independent autopilot systems to fail, we do know this.
Click to expand...

When did your english teacher say it was ok to use absolutes when there is a chance of something happening?

There are Tens of millions of fleet hours flown on the 767. Strange stuff that has never happened before is bound to happen at some point. This auto pilot anomaly was one of those "that shouldn't happen" things, but guess what? It did.

And as far as coming up with crazy things, lets try this on.
......hand flying at the upper flight levels is and can be dangerous since the aircraft operating speed envelope is relatively small, sometimes less then a 10 knot of spread.
Click to expand...

You really should stop reading the tale of Hoot Gibson and his 727 at "four-one-oh". At the weights that a 767 crosses the Atlantic, FL350 is a high altitude. Without the auto pilot you are normally restricted to FL280. 280 is nowhere near the upper flight levels. Heck, its in the bottom half that the airliners operate in. I'm sure the "coffin corner" charts were considered in their extensive discussions with dispatch and maintenance control. But since they were not in the "upper flight levels", they weren't a big deal. Flying your airplane you should know about trimming for airspeed, guess what it does a pretty good job at doing that.
 
AP i am still waiting for a phone call if you want to talk about what ALPA could bring to Colgan.
 
OldTownPilot said:
When did your english teacher say it was ok to use absolutes when there is a chance of something happening?

There are Tens of millions of fleet hours flown on the 767. Strange stuff that has never happened before is bound to happen at some point. This auto pilot anomaly was one of those "that shouldn't happen" things, but guess what? It did.

And as far as coming up with crazy things, lets try this on.


You really should stop reading the tale of Hoot Gibson and his 727 at "four-one-oh". At the weights that a 767 crosses the Atlantic, FL350 is a high altitude. Without the auto pilot you are normally restricted to FL280. 280 is nowhere near the upper flight levels. Heck, its in the bottom half that the airliners operate in. I'm sure the "coffin corner" charts were considered in their extensive discussions with dispatch and maintenance control. But since they were not in the "upper flight levels", they weren't a big deal. Flying your airplane you should know about trimming for airspeed, guess what it does a pretty good job at doing that.
Click to expand...

Okay, well last I checked the North Atlantic crossing tracks range between FL310 to FL400, these would constitute appropriate Atlantic Crossing Altitudes. So with a flight restriction of FL280, how do you plan on crossing the Atlantic, keeping in mind that you are still required to comply with ETOP procedures?
The only option would be a re-route, and that would require a revised fuel load all that needs to be coordinated by dispatch.
In my expierence, I have never heard of three independent autopilot systems failing independtly. A failure of all three is usually indicates a data failure which is feeding the autopilot system.

Also if you want to take a ding at me, nice try on the English. If that is all you can come up with than I am flattered as criticizing someone's english is usually a last resort, among other things childish.
 
As we all know crap happen when we fly. That and Tens of millions of fleet hours can explain an autopilot not engaging properly.

If you are so familiar about the track system you would also know that you can cross the atlantic outside the tracks in so called "random routings" Flights such as LAX-LHR and EWR-BCN use these as their optimum path is well outside the 6 pre-constructed paths separated by 1 degree of latitude. If you go below RVSM airspace you would be on a "random routing", a perfectly legal way to cross the Atlantic.

ETOPS is rally a non factor in this scenario. When you are doing your pre flight planning you draw circles about your ETOPS alternates. These are a fixed distance based on the time certification of your airplane. A circle from SNN and another from YYT will cover the entire atlantic for about 20 degrees of latitude. These circles do not change based on your altitude.
 
AmazingPilot said:
In my expierence, I have never heard of three independent autopilot systems failing independtly. A failure of all three is usually indicates a data failure which is feeding the autopilot system.
Click to expand...

Uhh, darned near anything can happen. My new plane's got three. I'll even be more than happy to ask about the scenario in ground school tomorrow if you'd like specifics.

Fire loops don't always work either! :) I know a mad dog driver who found out the hard way last year. Not me! I was on vacay!

Keep it civil in my living room. Remember you're a guest.
 
OldTownPilot said:
As we all know crap happen when we fly. That and Tens of millions of fleet hours can explain an autopilot not engaging properly.

If you are so familiar about the track system you would also know that you can cross the atlantic outside the tracks in so called "random routings" Flights such as LAX-LHR and EWR-BCN use these as their optimum path is well outside the 6 pre-constructed paths separated by 1 degree of latitude. If you go below RVSM airspace you would be on a "random routing", a perfectly legal way to cross the Atlantic.

ETOPS is rally a non factor in this scenario. When you are doing your pre flight planning you draw circles about your ETOPS alternates. These are a fixed distance based on the time certification of your airplane. A circle from SNN and another from YYT will cover the entire atlantic for about 20 degrees of latitude. These circles do not change based on your altitude.
Click to expand...

The circle may not change your altitude, but a healthy aircraft will be filed on these tracks, especially in Part 121/125 operations. The random route may be perfectly legal, but you will no longer be operating on the North Atlantic Track system. You will be operating below them on a random route, which will not be the same waypoints as outlined on the tracks. This will require a reroute, and may affect ETOP operations.
I agree the ETOP requirements will not vary much and shouldn't result in a huge change, but it will need a revised route.

Not to get off on a tangent here, my original posting was to address the situation of a triple redundent system failure ocuring. While I wholeheartly agree with the fact that an aircraft operating over hundreds of thousands of flight hours can have anything happen, my point is that they're is probably a bigger issue that is causing it. It's is rare that an aircraft can have a dual engine failure, but it does and has happened. The thing you need to look at is that what caused the resulted failure; loss of fuel, contaminated fuel, excessive debris in the air. Odds are two engines will just not randomly fail for no reason. Same thing with an autopilot system, which rarely fails, having all three fail needs to be indictive of something else going wrong. The bigger picture that is all I am talking about.

So when someone refers to it as a Gremlin in the system I find that a very uninformed, vague response to a rasied hypothetical situation. Diagnosing an aircarft's problem is very important before deciding which action to take. Calling it a "Gremlin" and deciding to deal with it is half-a$$-assesment of the failure.
 
SteveC said:
How about a PM instead of going waaay off-topic?

;)
Click to expand...


You are right! Sorry about that! I punched myself in the face for my yellow card.

:)




AP, I used the term gremlin as a figure of speech. I am well aware that if you have three autopilots fail you have quite a few issues with the airplane.

However, if you ever hear mechanics talk, especially the ones at the Colgan ALB base, you will hear them say "these (insert four letter word here) planes and their (insert four letter word here) GREMLINS."


It is a figure of casual speech.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Uhh, darned near anything can happen. My new plane's got three. I'll even be more than happy to ask about the scenario in ground school tomorrow if you'd like specifics.

Fire loops don't always work either! :) I know a mad dog driver who found out the hard way last year. Not me! I was on vacay!

Keep it civil in my living room. Remember you're a guest.
Click to expand...

Yeah Doug, I'd appreciate you asking about having all three autopilots systems failing at the same time, or on the same flight.

Sorry if I came off a little defensive OldTimePilot, I apoligize for coming off a little strong, personality fault I guess. I'll keep it more respectful in the future.

Seggy I'm really not interested in discussing the union with you on this website or via phone, so you can stop with the PMs. Lobby your support through the appropriate channels of the organizing commitee that you sit on.
 
AmazingPilot said:
Yeah Doug, I'd appreciate you asking about having all three autopilots systems failing at the same time, or on the same flight.
Click to expand...

From personal experience, I'd had both autopilots fail in an MD-88/90 on several occasions where the aircraft was kosher for dispatch and experience no navigation problems. I don't think we were able to enter RVSM airspace, I'm not sure but I'd have to look at a much later date as I'm systems-dumping all of the McD stuff.

Sorry if I came off a little defensive OldTimePilot, I apoligize for coming off a little strong, personality fault I guess. I'll keep it more respectful in the future.
Click to expand...

Sure will!
 
TonyC said:
Invite the Flight Attendants to take a turn at level flight. Why not take advantage of the opportunity to break up the monotony of hours and hours of handflying straight and level, right? Could be entertaining. :).
Click to expand...

What's the status of our airsick bags?
 
thestaton said:
Just a note, I just had something very similar to this happen. We where leaving Rota, Spain coming back to Dover, DE. After the pilots climbed to cruise, they realized that autopilot would not engage. Engineers ran there checks, and did everything they could. We had 3 pilots and I kid you not they beasted the whole 10 hour flight back to Dover.
Click to expand...


That's why in our aircraft we were limited to a 12 hour duty day if any axis of the autopilot was inop. And man, that is a LONG 12 hours when you have to do it....
 
staplegun said:
It's stable, but not that stable!
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: There isn't a single over the pond flight that i've taken that hasn't had some type of turbulence the entire way. I can imagine flying it without the autopilot would be a pain in the butt.
 
Being a 121 dispatcher here -

According to an older copy of the B767-3ER MEL, there are 3 autopilot control systems on the B767 (at least in this MEL, of a US 121 operator of the type who did operate up to 3 hr ETOPS in the plane). According to that same operator,

For predeparture, you can have 1 A/P inoperative and still operate under 3-hr ETOPS. Once in flight and the A/P craps out, deselect the crapped out one, and engage another, and send an ACARS to dispatch that you have an inop A/P, and are continuing. Because if another A/P craps out pre-crossing, THAT can be a problem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top