Your Aviation Education

[mhcasey]

B767 - I like your idea in theory, but have a few problems with it:

1. We'd end up with a pretty homogeneous group of aviation-university dorks. I know a lot of guys on here went to college for aviation and are not dorks, but I think most will agree they are the exception.
2. Who will be able to afford it? If everyone is forced to go through a university, demand will go up and with it price, which is already absurdly high at Riddle.

Still, I've seen some bad...real bad pilots come out of FBOs with all their certificates and it makes me wonder. But hey, I'm hoping to go through the other accredited program you recommended anyway.

On the price note - Apparently not all flight universities are created equal. A good friend of mine went through CTC here in Texas and paid absurdly low prices to fly a Mooney and a C310 for his training. If I hadn't gotten an even better deal (work in exchange for gas), I would have paid way more to do my training in a 172 and a Duchess. Of course, I got paid nothing - just worked in exchange for that deal, so when you factor in my time, maybe he came out ahead.

He's one of the best pilots and CFIs I know - hands down. However, he complained about the "rigidity," rarely getting solo time, rarely flying in IMC, and never taking fun flights with his buddies. Also, there was apparently only one attractive girl at his school, but she got married so they were all hozed. Still, I think he did well for himself.

 

[HeyEng]

For me it was more interesting (ERAU). Most of the classes kept me involved and I was "wanting" to learn the information. My master's degree was boring, and I just wanted to get it done (training and development stuff). Can I use the ERAU degree to get a job? Probably not. Can I use the T&D degree to get a job? Yes, today and making pretty good money, too. It's just one of those things.

One of the aviation classes I really learned A LOT...crash dynamics. After that class, I really understood how an accident of any kind can kill you if the circumstances are right.

A side note: I heard some discussion in regards to higher education. The jist was it may not be prudnet to spend 15-20K a year getting a degree in business, arts, blah, blah, blah since many of these jobs are going the way of the dodo bird. Spend a couple years in VoTech and get training in a "higher paying" blue collar job (HVAC, nursing, etc.).

Still, I've seen some bad...real bad pilots come out of FBOs with all their certificates and it makes me wonder. But hey, I'm hoping to go through the other accredited program you recommended anyway.

I hope I am reading this wrong, but are you saying FBO produced pilots are worse than "academy" types? I have had a handful of Air Force pilots try to kill me, and I think AF flight training is pretty good...but there are bad apples in every bunch!

 

[KLB]

Well I listed the Pros earlier. Now I'll comment on some of the Cons.

There's a lot Beurocrasy and red tape to deal with to get things done. Things as simple as setting up a stage check or check ride had to be requested by me, then my instructor, and then approved by the Assistant Chief flight instructor or Chief flight instructor. That could take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. Then I could finally set up a check ride with a DE.

I didn't have the freedom to fly where I wanted to fly. We could only fly to places that were approved and listed in the FOM. I only had three choices of places to do my Commercial long cross country to.

This was more specific to my school, but I got sick and tired of the good ole boys and brown nosers.

There was undo pressure caused by them having a rule that if you didn't finish a course by the end of a semester, you got an Incomplete for the course in your records. Thats not very conducive to having a good learning experience. Eventually I got to the point where I just didn't care. If it took me longer, so be it.

You could not do this program unless you had a huge chunk of money in your flight account. There was no way to pay as you go because of the reason listed above. The program does not work well for folks who don't come from a wealthy family or commits to taking out huge loans.

I felt that I wasn't a customer and they were giving me a service. They were way too controlling and disrespectful at times. An example of this is they would suspend your flights and make you wash a plane if you forgot to put a pit cover on or install the control wheel lock. I'd absolutely refuse to do it. If they wanted, we could go and talk to the Dean of Business and see how he felt about it. They would tell you up front that they weren't an FBO. It may have been the students not complaining, but it seemed the the flight operations people had free reign do what they wanted and treat people however the department felt like treating people.

Instead of instructing there, I left for Texas as soon as I finished my flight training to instruct where I felt I could have more freedom and where I could treat customers like customers.

In conclusion, I liked the academic portion of the flight school more than the flight training portion. If I had it to do all over again, I'd still go there for the simple fact that I got so much financial through low interest government loans, Pell grants, aviation scholarships, and band scholarships. It was a lot to put up with, but it cost me only about 50-60 grand for a degree and most of my certificates and ratings. The professors and teachers in and outside of the aviation department were exceptional individuals. Since my alma mater is a smaller institution, all of my instructors knew me by my first name.

 

[mhcasey]

I hope I am reading this wrong, but are you saying FBO produced pilots are worse than "academy" types? I have had a handful of Air Force pilots try to kill me, and I think AF flight training is pretty good...but there are bad apples in every bunch!

You are reading it wrong. You generalized my specific statement. I have no clue what kind of pilots the military guys make because I've not gotten there yet. The point was simply that it would be great to have more control in the training environment...basically that more guys probably should "wash out" of civilian flying. Maybe we could just start assigning UAVs out of FBO training?

 

[HeyEng]

You are reading it wrong. You generalized my specific statement. I have no clue what kind of pilots the military guys make because I've not gotten there yet. The point was simply that it would be great to have more control in the training environment...basically that more guys probably should "wash out" of civilian flying. Maybe we could just start assigning UAVs out of FBO training?

That is why I asked for clarification. Perhaps the standards for checkrides aren't as stringent as they should be, thus increasing the "washout rate"?

Sweet...UAV after finishing "Bob's Flight School and Diner" course. wait, I think I might have a business idea..

 

[esa17]

In addendum; I did all my training part 61 outside of the academy environment. My degree was just the management side without the stringent, never fun, flying. Every single person I know that flies for our schools academy HATES it. Some of the worst pilots I have ever seen have come out of that place, I'm talking CFIs that don't know what the flaps do. Sure they can spout all the trivia you want but they don't really have a clue whats going on. Conversely, some of the BEST pilots I have ever met came out of that same academy. Academies are plagued with bureaucratic issues, just yesterday I was speaking with a student who was waiting for the school to schedule the examiner for his checkride. He was given the line that the examiner was booked solid, I called the examiner and booked one of my students rides as we were sitting there for the coming weekend. At the academies you are treated as a number, not a person, there seems to be a lack of respect between instructors and students that bothers me. All that said, in the academies just like anywhere else, you get out what you put in. The pilots who come out of there sucking eggs are the ones who didn't put the effort it.

Getting a pilots license is easy, becoming a professional aviatior is not. It takes time, dedication, and perserverence that some just don't have. Basically, its all on you.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Getting a pilots license is easy, becoming a professional aviatior is not.

I'll be honest with you. I didn't exactly break a sweat doing either.

 

[Nark]

B767
I've held my tongue for a while, but in no way does an aviation accredited school give you a leg up in anything in this business.

The mere fact that you needed a heart beat and little else when the regional's were calling earlier this year is attest to that. Supply and demand my friend.

I've been around this racket for over 10 years and I've seen good pilots and retards come from both paths.

But to answer the original question, everything I thought I knew coming out of flight school was nothing to what I learned while flying the real world, whether it was in the bush, or wearing a shirt and tie.

 

[B767Driver]

B767
I've held my tongue for a while, but in no way does an aviation accredited school give you a leg up in anything in this business.

I agree. I don't believe I ever said it does.

And that's why I stated the profession needs a narrower course of entry to more closely scrutinize the aptitude of those desiring to become professional pilots.

I would like to sit next to the best and the brightest in the nation's cockpits. Currently, our training and licensing practices do nothing to reward high aptitude people for entering aviation.

Taking a guy with a GED, put him through some flight training, and strapping him in an RJ with a few hundred hours is not exactly conducive to building a strong profession, IMO.

Of course, there can be great flight training by extrememly bright individuals at FBO's...no argument there. But the scenario is inconsistent at best.

I probably would not suggest an aviation degree as the best option currently. However, IMO, narrowing licensing requirements and accreditation standards would both improve civilian primary training, ensure high aptitude people are in the career track and raise the status of our profession.

 

[Nark]

What status do you think a pilot should have?

Flying a plane really isn't that hard, and I'm sure we know many-a-monkey's from both university and fbo schools that prove that.

Is having a degree going to save your ass when all three hydraulic lines are severed, ie UAL 232? I doubt it. That is why you're paid as a pilot. Simply to keep from killing everyone on board and on the ground going from A to B.

Education does not equal aptitude.

Nothing turns me off a conversation faster than one someone pipes up about a class they took about said subject, when the rest of us have experienced it.

 

[azaviator08]

Federal Student Loans for flight training!!!

 

[bidgerini]

I got a BS degree for cheap from ERAU's extended campus. By using my flight time as credit, community college, and CLEP/DANTES tests, I got my 4 year degree for about 10k.

I just wanted to check the box. With that said, they did have some airport managers from DFW that taught there.

I'm extremely interested to hear how you pulled off a degree for 10k. From what I've read it sounds like the degree is mandatory to be competitive in the industry. Since it seems to be just a requirement to get you in the door I don't really care what I have to study or where I do it, I just want to get the most cost effective education I can so I can afford to do my flight training at the same time. Do I just need to find any institution that offers a BS in some aviation program? Or are some schools more reputable than others? Will an Associates degree get you far enough or is the bachelor degree required to get hired by the regionals, and hopefully someday in the very distant future, the majors?

 

[bidgerini]

Who qualifies and is this a thing of the past in our deteriorating economy?

 

[Realms09]

Flying a plane really isn't that hard.

In high school I once had a conversation with another student regarding an AP English course that she was taking currently and that I was looking to take next year. I asked if it was difficult. She responded honestly, "Nope, it's easy." I asked what her average was: "C". Sometimes different views on the difficulty of a task are actually differences in personal standards. A beginner might say flying a loop is easy because his standard could be ending right side up, but an experienced aerobatic competitor would know that flying a precise loop is quite difficult. To a perfectionist few endeavors are easy.

Education does not equal aptitude.

Nothing turns me off a conversation faster than one someone pipes up about a class they took about said subject, when the rest of us have experienced it.

You are right, but education is a piece of the puzzle. Education prevents us from reinventing the wheel by codifying and distributing the experiences of others. The person who takes the class has much to learn from you who has experienced it, and in return the class-goer might offer you some theory or additional set of experiences that helps you better understand your own. The most talented individuals can approach a subject from many different angles, including both academic book-learning AND hands-on experimentation. One remarkable engineer I know, for instance, is equally adept at machining and in depth engineering analysis. Both pursuits are essential parts of education in any field, and flying is no different.

 

[mhcasey]

I'm extremely interested to hear how you pulled off a degree for 10k. From what I've read it sounds like the degree is mandatory to be competitive in the industry. Since it seems to be just a requirement to get you in the door I don't really care what I have to study or where I do it, I just want to get the most cost effective education I can so I can afford to do my flight training at the same time. Do I just need to find any institution that offers a BS in some aviation program? Or are some schools more reputable than others? Will an Associates degree get you far enough or is the bachelor degree required to get hired by the regionals, and hopefully someday in the very distant future, the majors?

Mojo, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the online/cleps/flight hour thing is the cheapest way to check the box - Not necessarily the most cost effective degree. Depends on what you want from it, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Mojo did not come away from it all with an Ivy League education.

That said...I'd recommend a lot of that approach to anyone at any school. My AP scores got my out of ~40ish hours. Cleped out of most of my Spanish (had to have 4 semester proficiency for my B.A.), took the rest at CC with a bunch of hot girls from UT that also felt like taking it easy during the summer, and then took my final history credit at CC with a different round of hot UT girls. It still took me 4 years and a lot of money to graduate, but that's because I did everything I could to stay in school:rawk:

No offense to Mojo. I'm going to continue on my limb and assume that he's a heck of a pilot and doesn't have much desire to do anything else. Just want to be sure bidg knows what he's looking at. If your definition of "cost effective" is the cheapest way to check the box, then disregard this post.

 

[Boris Badenov]

In high school I once had a conversation with another student regarding an AP English course that she was taking currently and that I was looking to take next year. I asked if it was difficult. She responded honestly, "Nope, it's easy." I asked what her average was: "C". Sometimes different views on the difficulty of a task are actually differences in personal standards.

I'm neither a beginner nor a perfectionist, but I get the thing from one place to another in an expeditious manner without breaking anything. That's my job. I excel at it. It's not very hard. This leaves me lots of time to hone my skills in detecting presumptuous tools on the internet.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I checked the 4 year degree, A&P, Instrument, Commercial, MEI, and CFI/II boxes all in one fell swoop, and got a good scholarship that helped with it.
I learned to survive on my own (hey, I was homeschooled...this one was an accomplishment!)
I made a lot of good friends, contacts, and references in and out of aviation.
I placed well in a national competition in my field of study (yes, I was one of "those" guys).

 

[Realms09]

I'm neither a beginner nor a perfectionist, but I get the thing from one place to another in an expeditious manner without breaking anything. That's my job. I excel at it. It's not very hard. This leaves me lots of time to hone my skills in detecting presumptuous tools on the internet.

Sometimes ain't always I am glad you are good at what you do and find pride in doing it. For my part (in other words, without presumption ) I find it more productive to approach things with an attitude of continuing improvement rather than viewing something as easy. The second I decide something is easy it usually comes back to bite me. Formal education can be a part of that improvement process. If there is truly nothing to improve upon, where is the challenge? Why keep doing it, plodding along in boredom? These are important issues to me, and I would like to know your viewpoint. If a single pilot night freight guy (correct me if I'm wrong) is perpetually bored, what's left of professional aviation?

 

[B767Driver]

Realms...I learned early in this thread, that I'd end up banging my head against a wall if I continued. However, I agree with your input and you only have to look at the type of dialogue and banter of those who argue that an education is not a desirable attribute for those in a profession...to really make your point poignant...although, I do agree...that an education alone does not guarantee success in the cockpit.

A case in point. At a commuter airline, I worked with a guy who was quite capable in the cockpit and a fairly likeable guy. At one point I asked him to write a letter of recommendation for me...as I was interviewing for a new company. The letter was littered with misspellings, gross grammatical errors and really poor construction. I was flabergasted. He never had a college education and it really did not show until that time. But you have to wonder...if he was so lacking in the basic 3R's...what other type of deficiencies did he possess that may not show until other, more critical times.

How would you like this guy to show up to represent your profession at a local high school, community college or other civic funtion?

Our profession is more than going from point A to point B...and listening to an attitude of such mediocrity is unfortunate.

 

[scramjet]

Realms...I learned early in this thread, that I'd end up banging my head against a wall if I continued. However, I agree with your input and you only have to look at the type of dialogue and banter of those who argue that an education is not a desirable attribute for those in a profession...to really make your point poignant...although, I do agree...that an education alone does not guarantee success in the cockpit.

A case in point. At a commuter airline, I worked with a guy who was quite capable in the cockpit and a fairly likeable guy. At one point I asked him to write a letter of recommendation for me...as I was interviewing for a new company. The letter was littered with misspellings, gross grammatical errors and really poor construction. I was flabergasted. He never had a college education and it really did not show until that time. But you have to wonder...if he was so lacking in the basic 3R's...what other type of deficiencies did he possess that may not show until other, more critical times.

How would you like this guy to show up to represent your profession at a local high school, community college or other civic funtion?

Our profession is more than going from point A to point B...and listening to an attitude of such mediocrity is unfortunate.

I couldn't agree more!:yeahthat: