Yes JC, there truly is a God: Skybus is dead!

[FlyChicaga]

I am glad this debacle is over. I am sad to see ATA and Aloha get sent the way of the dodo, but I shed no tears over SkyBus. Now hopefully we can move on and close this chapter in "ridiculous moments in airline history."

 

[skydog]

I feel sorry for the families, but not for the pilots. The pilots got just what they deserve.

I think it is time for a little history lesson. Back in late 1993, a company called Valujet was started, flying DC-9s. They too had the ultra-cheap no-frills business model. They paid their Captains a whooping $42K a year and their First Officers $25K. This was after the pilots paid for their own training. This company went along fine for a couple of years, until their ultra-cheap business practices resulted in several incidents and accidents that injured a couple dozen people, and a crash that killed 115 people. Valujet was grounded by the FAA in 1996. They eventually got permission to fly again but with only about a quarter of the airplanes that they were flying previously.

Meanwhile, about the same time that Valujet started, another little company started up out of Orlando called Air Tran. They had 10 737-200's and primarily targeted the leisure market to and from Florida. They had a perfect safety record.

After Valujet resumed flying, they went looking for a way to shed their bad public image. So they merged with Air Tran and assumed the Air Tran name. And it worked beautifully.
Today, barely anyone remembers that Valujet even existed, and they certainly don't recognize that Air Tran is, for all intents and purposes, Valujet. Air Tran is a highly sought after employer. Pilots want to work for it and make a career there. Our very own PCL128 is one of them. No one remembers the rock-bottom wages they paid, or that pilots had to pay for their own training.

What's my point? Inflation adjust that previously mentioned Captain's wage of $42000 per year, and guess what you come with? Just over 65K a year. So while guys like PCL like to bust the chops of the so-called "bottom feeding" "protoscabbing" pilots, it is apparently lost on him that it is because of pilots who were willing to take a chance on Valujet 15 years ago that he now has that fat job from which he is able to sit back and cast contempt upon others. Some irony there.

 

[wheelsup]

skydog: 1 | PCL_128: 0

 

[kellwolf]

Like everyone else, I've got sympathy for the families, but very little for the pilots that took the jobs. First off, people should have realized with oil bounding through the ceiling with no end in sight, this business model wasn't going to work. I have strong doubts that it would have worked with oil NOT going through the roof since most Americans would see it as "nickel and diming them to death" on every flight. People complain when Delta raise their overweight bag fees. How do you think those people would feel if they were charged per bag that was a normal weight? It works for RyanAir in Europe, but it's a different mentality with a stronger currency.

As for the pilots.....there should be animosity towards them. Makes it hard for the rest of us to get decent wages when people start falling all over themselves to fly an Airbus for less than what RJ guys make. I understand that some may have made the switch for QOL issues. After all, it probably sucks to commute from CMH. But they also have to understand that if (in this case WHEN) things fall apart, there will be consequences for those actions.

 

[Itchy]

Excellent post Skydog.

Nice reality check.

 

[mikecweb]

I can hear the spin machine starting up right now.

 

[Kristie]

I think it is time for a little history lesson. Back in late 1993, a company called Valujet was started, flying DC-9s. They too had the ultra-cheap no-frills business model. They paid their Captains a whooping $42K a year and their First Officers $25K. This was after the pilots paid for their own training. This company went along fine for a couple of years, until their ultra-cheap business practices resulted in several incidents and accidents that injured a couple dozen people, and a crash that killed 115 people. Valujet was grounded by the FAA in 1996. They eventually got permission to fly again but with only about a quarter of the airplanes that they were flying previously.

Meanwhile, about the same time that Valujet started, another little company started up out of Orlando called Air Tran. They had 10 737-200's and primarily targeted the leisure market to and from Florida. They had a perfect safety record.

After Valujet resumed flying, they went looking for a way to shed their bad public image. So they merged with Air Tran and assumed the Air Tran name. And it worked beautifully.
Today, barely anyone remembers that Valujet even existed, and they certainly don't recognize that Air Tran is, for all intents and purposes, Valujet. Air Tran is a highly sought after employer. Pilots want to work for it and make a career there. Our very own PCL128 is one of them. No one remembers the rock-bottom wages they paid, or that pilots had to pay for their own training.

What's my point? Inflation adjust that previously mentioned Captain's wage of $42000 per year, and guess what you come with? Just over 65K a year. So while guys like PCL like to bust the chops of the so-called "bottom feeding" "protoscabbing" pilots, it is apparently lost on him that it is because of pilots who were willing to take a chance on Valujet 15 years ago that he now has that fat job from which he is able to sit back and cast contempt upon others. Some irony there.

I remember...loud and clear....mostly the reason i didn't fly them when i lived in MCO... because i know they are the old valuejet.

 

[Kingairer]

LATA!

 

[Trip7]

Skybus wages:

$65k for Airbus Captains
$30k for Airbus FOs

No second year pay raises, no union, pilots forced to go to Costco to buy bottled water for themselves, etc....

Are you serious? Pathetic.

Oooooh, you're calling me out?! How scary. :laff:

Get back to me when you've spent years doing union work. Then we can talk about who contributed to the profession.

:yeahthat: People keep going out PCL's past like there's something he can do about it. When you invent that time machine, Im sure he will gladly do that. Trying to stab someone in the back over something he's done in the past is pathetic and cowardly. Especially after years of hard work to improve the profession. Definitely someone you want on your MEC during negotiations. No nonsense approach, not someone willing to let management give them another serving of BOHICA.

 

[970Flyer]

Frontier has enough cash to make it for another year or so, AND today they announced that they are no longer serving bread sticks on every flight to save money....

I consider the fall of several airlines just a natural thinning of the herd. When the money is good it's only natural to see others try to jump in any get some for themselves. Now that the economy is poor and the price of gas is higher it only makes sense that the weak will fall. On a brighter note, I think that it will make those that withstand the "cold of winter" will only come out of this bigger and stronger....assuming that they (management) don't do something stupid in the interim.

 

[Malko]

So SkyBus pilots were making low wages making it harder for others to make a better wage. OK.

And now all the Airbus drivers are going to see an increase in their pay....?

And on a more serious note, I understand the view that Airline 'X' is a bad place for <...insert reason....> but my question is how is it ever going to get any better if there aren't those willing to try and change it.

My example would be our own Seggy....I heard all sorts of less than favorable things about Colgan: work rules, pay, Doin the Colgan, etc.....But Mark went there knowing these things and he worked his tail off trying to make it a better place. Unfortunately he was unsuccessul the first time around. Now if he and others like him don't go to these 'undesirables' and try to change it, how can they move on and become better places of employment?

 

[Trip7]

I think it is time for a little history lesson. Back in late 1993, a company called Valujet was started, flying DC-9s. They too had the ultra-cheap no-frills business model. They paid their Captains a whooping $42K a year and their First Officers $25K. This was after the pilots paid for their own training. This company went along fine for a couple of years, until their ultra-cheap business practices resulted in several incidents and accidents that injured a couple dozen people, and a crash that killed 115 people. Valujet was grounded by the FAA in 1996. They eventually got permission to fly again but with only about a quarter of the airplanes that they were flying previously.

Meanwhile, about the same time that Valujet started, another little company started up out of Orlando called Air Tran. They had 10 737-200's and primarily targeted the leisure market to and from Florida. They had a perfect safety record.

After Valujet resumed flying, they went looking for a way to shed their bad public image. So they merged with Air Tran and assumed the Air Tran name. And it worked beautifully.
Today, barely anyone remembers that Valujet even existed, and they certainly don't recognize that Air Tran is, for all intents and purposes, Valujet. Air Tran is a highly sought after employer. Pilots want to work for it and make a career there. Our very own PCL128 is one of them. No one remembers the rock-bottom wages they paid, or that pilots had to pay for their own training.

What's my point? Inflation adjust that previously mentioned Captain's wage of $42000 per year, and guess what you come with? Just over 65K a year. So while guys like PCL like to bust the chops of the so-called "bottom feeding" "protoscabbing" pilots, it is apparently lost on him that it is because of pilots who were willing to take a chance on Valujet 15 years ago that he now has that fat job from which he is able to sit back and cast contempt upon others. Some irony there.

Thats like saying Virgin America bought Skybus because Skybus was in ruins and wanted to change their image and today (2015) Sky America is a highly sought after employer that pays well. It became a completely different company. Obviously Valujet had to change their business practices and their pay to become what they are today otherwise no one would go work for them. If Skybus(if they actually survived) got a Union and and improved pay to proper wages sure I would think about going there. They're after improving the professional conditions of pilots not liquidating companies. Again you're attacking the past like there's something we can do about it. Valujet is no more, it is now Airtran. Move forward please. ASA used to be pay for training, am a wrong for going there? XJT used to be PFT. The argument is baseless.

 

[kellwolf]

And now all the Airbus drivers are going to see an increase in their pay....?

Not necessarily, but it's one less thing for management to point at and say "Why should I pay you more when these guys are doing the same job for less?" Does it help immediately? Probably not. Does it help when contract negotiations roll around? Absolutely. It also gives the union some leverage on the whole "Labor costs will kill you." Skybus is proof that rock bottom labor does not mean the business will fail or survive, just like SWA is proof that good wages and work rules won't sink the ship. The difference is the management and the business model of the two airlines. A lot of management teams would rather point the finger at labor/fuel prices than look in the mirror, though.

 

[mikecweb]

Marcus, the point is these places don't go from crappy to good without anyone there working to improve them. These same guys that work to improve the profession are denied rides home.

 

[SeanD]

How did Skybus actually believe their business model was going to work? They lease a small fleet of Airbuses which Im sure isnt cheap. They hire pilots at low wages. They hire FAs. In return they offer extremely low fares. When the time comes to pay the overhead ect. How on earth did they even make it this long? I bet they were doing "cash pulls" from the investors every month just to cover payroll. Is putting an airline out of business a tax write off?

 

[Baradium]

Now if he and others like him don't go to these 'undesirables' and try to change it, how can they move on and become better places of employment?

Faulty logic... if no one goes to these "undesirables" they won't be *around* to be bad places to work.

However, places like colgan aren't nearly on the level of Skybus. It's a disservice to the Colgan guys to compare them to Skybus.

While the Q400 pay at Colgan leaves much to be desired and needs to be rectified, it isn't nearly the same as Skybus, and people like Seggy went there before that came about.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I am glad this debacle is over. I am sad to see ATA and Aloha get sent the way of the dodo, but I shed no tears over SkyBus. Now hopefully we can move on and close this chapter in "ridiculous moments in airline history."

Hey, we finally agree! :yup:

I think it is time for a little history lesson. Back in late 1993, a company called Valujet was started, flying DC-9s. They too had the ultra-cheap no-frills business model. They paid their Captains a whooping $42K a year and their First Officers $25K. This was after the pilots paid for their own training. This company went along fine for a couple of years, until their ultra-cheap business practices resulted in several incidents and accidents that injured a couple dozen people, and a crash that killed 115 people. Valujet was grounded by the FAA in 1996. They eventually got permission to fly again but with only about a quarter of the airplanes that they were flying previously.

Meanwhile, about the same time that Valujet started, another little company started up out of Orlando called Air Tran. They had 10 737-200's and primarily targeted the leisure market to and from Florida. They had a perfect safety record.

After Valujet resumed flying, they went looking for a way to shed their bad public image. So they merged with Air Tran and assumed the Air Tran name. And it worked beautifully.
Today, barely anyone remembers that Valujet even existed, and they certainly don't recognize that Air Tran is, for all intents and purposes, Valujet. Air Tran is a highly sought after employer. Pilots want to work for it and make a career there. Our very own PCL128 is one of them. No one remembers the rock-bottom wages they paid, or that pilots had to pay for their own training.

What's my point? Inflation adjust that previously mentioned Captain's wage of $42000 per year, and guess what you come with? Just over 65K a year. So while guys like PCL like to bust the chops of the so-called "bottom feeding" "protoscabbing" pilots, it is apparently lost on him that it is because of pilots who were willing to take a chance on Valujet 15 years ago that he now has that fat job from which he is able to sit back and cast contempt upon others. Some irony there.

I know the history much better than you do, and some of your "facts" are dead wrong. But in any case, you completely miss the point. If Skybus were to have unionized and brought their pay up to industry average over the next ten years, pilots that would go to work there then would not be what Velo calls "proto-scabs." Only those that took the jobs now would fit the definition. The same situation happened at SWA. For many years, the SWA old-timers that were hired back in the 70s and 80s dragged down compensation and work rules and benefits. Now, SWA has some of the best pay and work rules in the business. The pilots that go there now or have gone there in the past decade or so did not contribute to the lowering of the bar. You want to look at the past, which is completely irrelevant.

Are you serious? Pathetic.


:yeahthat: People keep going out PCL's past like there's something he can do about it. When you invent that time machine, Im sure he will gladly do that. Trying to stab someone in the back over something he's done in the past is pathetic and cowardly. Especially after years of hard work to improve the profession. Definitely someone you want on your MEC during negotiations. No nonsense approach, not someone willing to let management give them another serving of BOHICA.

Drink are on me next time, buddy.

 

[Baradium]

Marcus, the point is these places don't go from crappy to good without anyone there working to improve them. These same guys that work to improve the profession are denied rides home.

I know you know better than this. You admitted it in chat last night.

The guys who went to skybus went there becuase they "wanted to fly a bigger aircraft" (quote from you) even at (by your own numbers) a massive pay cut.

They didn't go to skybus to "improve the profession." They went there becuase they wanted to jump ahead of everyone else becuase those people wouldn't accept the substandard wages.

It was selfishness that sent them there, not some romantic BS about "improving the profession."

I know you know guys there and probobly have friends that went there. Unfortunately, being nice guys normally does not excuse them for this.

Stabbing the rest of the profession in the back is not easily forgotten.

 

[Cptnchia]

Are you serious? Pathetic.



:yeahthat: People keep going out PCL's past like there's something he can do about it. When you invent that time machine, Im sure he will gladly do that. Trying to stab someone in the back over something he's done in the past is pathetic and cowardly. Especially after years of hard work to improve the profession. Definitely someone you want on your MEC during negotiations. No nonsense approach, not someone willing to let management give them another serving of BOHICA.

So let me ask you this... PCL cannot be held responsible for his past actions because of his redeaming work. Why can the same not be said for someone who is following in his footsteps? Who's to say that there wasn't a future PCL sprouting at these airlines. I guess that it was OK for me to view PCL back in the day like he views these poor saps now, but since he did "ALPA" work he's above reproach.

While it looks like I'm picking on PCL personally, I'm not. He just makes a good example of how we eat our young. Make no mistake, to put down these guys for doing the same thing some of you did smacks of hipocracy and ladder pulling. Instead of beating them over the head, how about trying to educate them and future groups. If you want to flame me for my views, let me give you a little background first. I've been involved with ALPA for the last 13 years, working on various committees. I still am a current accident investigator as well. If the only criteria is that as long as you did something for ALPA, this means I'm as bulletproof as PCL.

To be quite honest with you, if the fact that a fellow human being loses their job makes you giddy, that says something about your humanity. I can only speculate that those who post such things have never had to endure the pain of being furloughed. There are guys I fly with who can't wait for AirTran to go TU. As far as they're concerned, AT is nothing more than a very thin veneer on ValueJet. They view anyone flying for AT in the same light as a SkyBus, VA, JB pilot, regardless of whatever past contributions thay made. And they are just as wrong for their view. With that I'm done with this thread and frankly with this forum. While the idea behind this website is noble, my personal view is that it seems to have been co-opted by a select few when it comes to certain topics. Remember, in this industry the saying, "But for the Grace of God, go I," holds true for all of us.

 

[Baradium]

So let me ask you this... PCL cannot be held responsible for his past actions because of his redeaming work. Why can the same not be said for someone who is following in his footsteps? Who's to say that there wasn't a future PCL sprouting at these airlines. I guess that it was OK for me to view PCL back in the day like he views these poor saps now, but since he did "ALPA" work he's above reproach.

A big difference here is that PCL didn't have any intention when he did his gulfstream work.

The skybus pilots were all active and knew exactly what they were doing. One of their big supporters (mikecweb), admitted this last night when trying to defend them. They just didn't care how it affected others, as long as they got what *they* wanted.

This wasn't even a case of "they had to feed their families" which has long been an excuse for crossing picket lines.