XC Time

86BravoPapa

Well-Known Member
I was talking to a CFI, recently, about survey flying and his stance regarding logging XC time differs from mine. Now I'm not sure what is correct and can't find anything to conclusively support either opinions.

Scenario 1:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for four hours, refuel at KCLK, return to KPWA.

Scenario 2:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for three hours, return to KPWA.

How would you log XC time for each scenario? Both meet the ATP requirements for FAR 61.1(b)(vi) of 50nm straight line distance. Scenario 1 meets the 135 requirements of FAR 135.243(b/c) of separate points of departure and destination. The confusion lies in whether the entire flight time, ferry and survey, should be logged as cross country; in reality, it may be a 63.5 nm flight to get to the survey area but several hundred miles and hours are flown during the time from takeoff to landing. Or, would you just log XC for the 63.5nm time enroute?

Thanks for the help!
 
I was talking to a CFI, recently, about survey flying and his stance regarding logging XC time differs from mine. Now I'm not sure what is correct and can't find anything to conclusively support either opinions.

Scenario 1:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for four hours, refuel at KCLK, return to KPWA.

Scenario 2:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for three hours, return to KPWA.

How would you log XC time for each scenario? Both meet the ATP requirements for FAR 61.1(b)(vi) of 50nm straight line distance. Scenario 1 meets the 135 requirements of FAR 135.243(b/c) of separate points of departure and destination. The confusion lies in whether the entire flight time, ferry and survey, should be logged as cross country; in reality, it may be a 63.5 nm flight to get to the survey area but several hundred miles and hours are flown during the time from takeoff to landing. Or, would you just log XC for the 63.5nm time enroute?

Thanks for the help!
Nothing that says it’s not cross country because you orbited or took the long way t get to the destination. Overthinking it. Also, IIRC, for ATP cross country mins you don’t have to land, just fly to a point 50 miles away. VOR, intersection, etc.
 
Just don't take the ORL FSDO approach where they say that 0.3 gets subtracted from each flight (if you sum the XC time towards 50) for 'taxi time'

Talk about Cuckoo
 
Nothing that says it’s not cross country because you orbited or took the long way t get to the destination. Overthinking it. Also, IIRC, for ATP cross country mins you don’t have to land, just fly to a point 50 miles away. VOR, intersection, etc.
THIS!!!

Funny thing this Reg....
It's my understanding that the Reg used to state that a flight greater than 50 and a landing was required. When the Air Force B-2 was used in the Middle East several years back, they launched, flew all the way over with numerous refueling, dropped bombs, and returned to their base. Half way around the world and it was only on the books as a "local" flight because they didn't land! The powers that be in the Air Force petitioned and were able to get it changed.
 
It counts for ATP, not for other certificates or ratings. It's a bit more than several years ago, it's all in the 61.1 definition of 61.1,

3 hours is an interesting question. The FAA might look askance at a pilot doing 3 hours of takeoff and landings (personal opinion) but this scenario sounds like a legit reason for the extra time.
 
Too often people get all worked up about this, it is pretty damn simple:

Did you land past 50nm? It counts for all ratings.

Did you fly past 50nm without landing ? It counts for ATP only.




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Too often people get all worked up about this, it is pretty damn simple:

Did you land past 50nm? It counts for all ratings.

Did you fly past 50nm without landing ? It counts for ATP only.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can add the third category

Did you land at another airport? It counts toward Part 135 minimums (and some other things, not all FAA).
 
You can add the third category

Did you land at another airport? It counts toward Part 135 minimums (and some other things, not all FAA).

Indeed, and I did start typing that out, but deleted it for simplicity since the OP seemed to focus on the aspect of 50nm.


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Indeed, and I did start typing that out, but deleted it for simplicity since the OP seemed to focus on the aspect of 50nm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The distance wasn't the focus. Whether or not the entire flight, from departure to flying survey lines then landing, should all be counted towards XC was the focus and question at hand. XC requirements towards ATP and/or Part 135 isn't in question.
 
The distance wasn't the focus. Whether or not the entire flight, from departure to flying survey lines then landing, should all be counted towards XC was the focus and question at hand. XC requirements towards ATP and/or Part 135 isn't in question.

This last sentence dictates the answer to the question of the second sentence. Knowing why cross country flight time exists and the variations of it is sort of important when logging flight time.

There are different definitions of cross country. Point to point (135 qualification), XC for acquiring the flight time required for ratings.



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It's my understanding that the Reg used to state that a flight greater than 50 and a landing was required. When the Air Force B-2 was used in the Middle East several years back, they launched, flew all the way over with numerous refueling, dropped bombs, and returned to their base. Half way around the world and it was only on the books as a "local" flight because they didn't land! The powers that be in the Air Force petitioned and were able to get it changed.

It actually dates back many years before the B-2. The B-52 Chrome Dome operations in the late 50s and 60s would take off, fly up to the arctic circle, refuel a few times, and land back at bases in the Dakotas 24 hours later. That's a 24 hour, 1 landing, "local" flight.
 
This last sentence dictates the answer to the question of the second sentence.

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No, not really, at all. Survey flying, aerial patrol, etc., are fairly unusual types of flying and verifying what the FAA or 121, 135, 91 operations will permit or recognize isn't always black and white. Local FSDO's have provided some "unique" interpretations regarding certain activities, regulations, etc., in the past.

Flying .6 hours to a survey site 50 nm away and then, basically, orbiting over the area for four hours before landing nearby or returning to the POD isn't a cut and dry XC flight. One could argue that the four hours orbiting do count because it's part of the same flight that meets XC criteria. One could also argue that the fours hours orbiting don't count and that only the time enroute to and from on a 50 nm straight line distance or greater or to an airport other than the POD counts.

I believe the entire flight time counts as XC but was challenged by a CFI so I wanted to get a group consensus or information from others that may have dealt with the same question before.
 
No, not really, at all. Survey flying, aerial patrol, etc., are fairly unusual types of flying and verifying what the FAA or 121, 135, 91 operations will permit or recognize isn't always black and white. Local FSDO's have provided some "unique" interpretations regarding certain activities, regulations, etc., in the past.

Flying .6 hours to a survey site 50 nm away and then, basically, orbiting over the area for four hours before landing nearby or returning to the POD isn't a cut and dry XC flight. One could argue that the four hours orbiting do count because it's part of the same flight that meets XC criteria. One could also argue that the fours hours orbiting don't count and that only the time enroute to and from on a 50 nm straight line distance or greater or to an airport other than the POD counts.

I believe the entire flight time counts as XC but was challenged by a CFI so I wanted to get a group consensus or information from others that may have dealt with the same question before.

That CFI is wrong, and you are right under certain conditions. Yes, that example of your survery flight can be an perfect example of logging cross country time. If you fully understand all the aspects of cross country.

The definitions of a cross country are definited in 14 CFR 61.1 & numerous letters of interpretation. The requirements for flying and logging cross country time for fixed wing are explained in 61.51, 61.65, 61.109, 61.129, 61.159, 61.160, 121.281, & 135.243. For example, 91.103 states “flight not in the vicinity of an airport”. How far do you have to go to be outside the vicinity and considered cross country?

135.243 only cares about point to point, 61.159 & 61.160 only care about >50nm regardless of landings, earning all other ratings require a landing beyond 50nm. You could fly survey as you are and log cross country time as appropriate to to your flight. Same goes for pipeline patrol, banner towing, sight seeing tours, crop dusting, etc. Think about the B-2 pilots that launch out of Whiteman Air Force Base, fly half way around the world while receiving fuel from tankers en route, and drop ordinance on another continent then land back at the place they departed from and log cross country.

It is important to know all the definitions of cross country, as you can benefit from it in different ways.
 
No, not really, at all. Survey flying, aerial patrol, etc., are fairly unusual types of flying and verifying what the FAA or 121, 135, 91 operations will permit or recognize isn't always black and white. Local FSDO's have provided some "unique" interpretations regarding certain activities, regulations, etc., in the past.

Flying .6 hours to a survey site 50 nm away and then, basically, orbiting over the area for four hours before landing nearby or returning to the POD isn't a cut and dry XC flight. One could argue that the four hours orbiting do count because it's part of the same flight that meets XC criteria. One could also argue that the fours hours orbiting don't count and that only the time enroute to and from on a 50 nm straight line distance or greater or to an airport other than the POD counts.

I believe the entire flight time counts as XC but was challenged by a CFI so I wanted to get a group consensus or information from others that may have dealt with the same question before.
Regardless of FSDO unofficial local opinions, I would say it is. Surveying a site and pipeline patrol is a formally recognized aviation activity - it even makes it into the regs by name. It is not "basically orbiting." It is working and it requires the use of cross country navigational skills like pilotage (perhaps more so) than a fly-the-magenta direct cross country. Even if the FAA (formally) were to say no to a student pilot orbiting the destination airport for four hours, I doubt it would say no to a recognized commercial activity like survey or pipeline patrol flight.

Local opinions by members of a local FSDO? If you were worried about that, there are all sorts of things you wold not be able to do. The Oakland FSDO once said only one pilot may log PIC at a time, something with years of official interpretation to the contrary. The Buffalo FSDO some years back insisted every leg of a student cross country had to be >50 NM long, something also pretty clear in the regulations. Of course, if you have plenty of cross country time without it, you are free to take the more conservative route.
 
The distance wasn't the focus. Whether or not the entire flight, from departure to flying survey lines then landing, should all be counted towards XC was the focus and question at hand. XC requirements towards ATP and/or Part 135 isn't in question.

Confused and curious. If we are talking about aerial survey work, then the pilot must be a commercial. The only reason any of us need to log any hours is to prove something. If not to prove ATP or 135 mins (or insurance or resume), what is it, and "what difference, at this point, does it make?"
 
Confused and curious. If we are talking about aerial survey work, then the pilot must be a commercial. The only reason any of us need to log any hours is to prove something. If not to prove ATP or 135 mins (or insurance or resume), what is it, and "what difference, at this point, does it make?"

The original post WAS about building XC time towards ATP and/ 135 minimums. But understanding of the XC regs for either wasn't the question or problem.
 
I was talking to a CFI, recently, about survey flying and his stance regarding logging XC time differs from mine. Now I'm not sure what is correct and can't find anything to conclusively support either opinions.

Scenario 1:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for four hours, refuel at KCLK, return to KPWA.

Scenario 2:

-Survey flight departing from KPWA with a project area just north of KCLK (63.5nm)
-Ferry to project area, survey for three hours, return to KPWA.

How would you log XC time for each scenario? Both meet the ATP requirements for FAR 61.1(b)(vi) of 50nm straight line distance. Scenario 1 meets the 135 requirements of FAR 135.243(b/c) of separate points of departure and destination. The confusion lies in whether the entire flight time, ferry and survey, should be logged as cross country; in reality, it may be a 63.5 nm flight to get to the survey area but several hundred miles and hours are flown during the time from takeoff to landing. Or, would you just log XC for the 63.5nm time enroute?

Thanks for the help!
Technically, you need to land someplace more than 50nm away (except for ATP). Less technically, any time in excess of 50 minutes spent looking at the airplane counts as both time in type and XC time. If your peeping is accomplished at night, add night XC to your logbook. If it's foggy out while you gaze upon your beloved little bird, add actual instrument time. ;)
 
Technically, you need to land someplace more than 50nm away (except for ATP). Less technically, any time in excess of 50 minutes spent looking at the airplane counts as both time in type and XC time. If your peeping is accomplished at night, add night XC to your logbook. If it's foggy out while you gaze upon your beloved little bird, add actual instrument time. ;)

I hear that's how the pros do it. :cool:
 
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