Wx Cancellations... ??

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I've a question for all you Major Dxs.

How long before a predicted Wx event can you/do you preemptively cancel flights?

For instance, the Wx 18 hours from now is predicted to be lousy at XYZ, YZX, and ZXY. BigIron Airlines doesn't want its aircraft stuck at XYZ, etc, but would much rather have them stationed at PHX... which while understandable, is completely hypothetical. Can you legitimately cancel multiple flights 16-18 hours in advance of a predicted Wx event and get away with that??? Especially if you end up landing other company flights at XYZ at the time of the predicted cancellation-justifying Wx?

Is there any language in the Contract of Carriage that specifies how far in advance of a predicted Wx event an airline may cancel a flight and still blame the cancellation on Wx??
 
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Crop Duster said:
I've a question for all you Major Dxs.

How long before a predicted Wx event can you/do you preemptively cancel flights?

For instance, the Wx 18 hours from now is predicted to be lousy at XYZ, YZX, and ZXY. BigIron Airlines doesn't want its aircraft stuck at XYZ, etc, but would much rather have them stationed at PHX... which while understandable, is completely hypothetical. Can you legitimately cancel multiple flights 16-18 hours in advance of a predicted Wx event and get away with that??? Especially if you end up landing other company flights at XYZ at the time of the predicted cancellation-justifying Wx?
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Well if nyc is telling airlines in the pregame meeting, which used to be less than 18 hours i suppose but it might be more, theyre going to be at 12-32 arrivals per hour in jfk for a 12 hour stretch its common to cancel many flights a day ahead, give people time to choose their rebook.

In my dx days we never cancelled except when whatever china mainline airline would call and cancel its flight, then a domino of airlines would cancel and it turned out someone put one in hard and all chinese airlines were grounded until someone made a decision they were safe. Is that me picking on the chinese? Yes. Yes it is.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Well if nyc is telling airlines in the pregame meeting, which used to be less than 18 hours i suppose but it might be more, theyre going to be at 12-32 arrivals per hour in jfk for a 12 hour stretch its common to cancel many flights a day ahead, give people time to choose their rebook.

In my dx days we never cancelled except when whatever china mainline airline would call and cancel its flight, then a domino of airlines would cancel and it turned out someone put one in hard and all chinese airlines were grounded until someone made a decision they were safe. Is that me picking on the chinese? Yes. Yes it is.
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OK, funny.

But seriously. And I'm not talking about NY or LA ATL or some major port/hub. Just the opposite, in fact. Flights were getting cancelled to small midwest Bravos and Charlies because BigIron didn't want their planes positioned there IF the Wx turned out lousy. But then it didn't and BigIron landed company flights at the same airports for which other company flights had been earlier cancelled.
 
Crop Duster said:
OK, funny.

But seriously. And I'm not talking about NY or LA ATL or some major port/hub. Just the opposite, in fact. Flights were getting cancelled to small midwest Bravos and Charlies because BigIron didn't want their planes positioned there IF the Wx turned out lousy. But then it didn't and BigIron landed company flights at the same airports for which other company flights had been earlier cancelled.
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It sounds like wires got crossed but maybe it made sense to someone.
 
jynxyjoe said:
It sounds like wires got crossed but maybe it made sense to someone.
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I'm sure they did. And I'm sure it did.

The real question is ... legally - per CoC or other relevant legalese - what is the maximum amount of time before a scheduled flight that that flight may be cancelled due to predicted Wx? (and have that cancellation defensibly justified to paying customers as Wx related)

I mean, hey, the Farmer's Almanac says next winter is gonna be a bitch... let's cancel now. Alaska Bush? No Pepsi for YOU!
 
Truth is flight cancellations like that are business decisions usually made far outside the realm of the dispatch. In my daily routine I look at the weather at my eta, and if it’s a difficult airport I will look at weather when I expect to depart. Outside of that, I let the business people decide what gets cancelled and to where.
 
Crop Duster said:
I'm sure they did. And I'm sure it did.

The real question is ... legally - per CoC or other relevant legalese - what is the maximum amount of time before a scheduled flight that that flight may be cancelled due to predicted Wx? (and have that cancellation defensibly justified to paying customers as Wx related)

I mean, hey, the Farmer's Almanac says next winter is gonna be a bitch... let's cancel now. Alaska Bush? No Pepsi for YOU!
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Like anything it would have to goto court. As long as passengers were accomidated and arrived eventually im not sure where the lawsuit would point to harm done.

Im sure someone could make it up. Thats a deep dive and I aint got the gear. Sorry. Get some answers id love to hear what they are.
 
What luigi said. Any pre-cancels are done as a business decision from the company. Only time it matters is when the release has been committed and the flight is now under your control, then all changes regarding that flight have to go through the dispatcher. But before that I don’t really care
 
Crop Duster said:
I'm sure they did. And I'm sure it did.

The real question is ... legally - per CoC or other relevant legalese - what is the maximum amount of time before a scheduled flight that that flight may be cancelled due to predicted Wx? (and have that cancellation defensibly justified to paying customers as Wx related)

I mean, hey, the Farmer's Almanac says next winter is gonna be a bitch... let's cancel now. Alaska Bush? No Pepsi for YOU!
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Go read a contract of carriage and let us know?
 
jynxyjoe said:
Like anything it would have to goto court. As long as passengers were accomidated and arrived eventually im not sure where the lawsuit would point to harm done.

Im sure someone could make it up. Thats a deep dive and I aint got the gear. Sorry. Get some answers id love to hear what they are.
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Pax were NOT accommodated. That's, er, kinda sorta the point I'm TRYING to get at. With Wx, no accommodation is required. So then the question becomes, what is Wx?
 
Mindsage25 said:
What luigi said. Any pre-cancels are done as a business decision from the company. Only time it matters is when the release has been committed and the flight is now under your control, then all changes regarding that flight have to go through the dispatcher. But before that I don’t really care
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Well, so it looks like it might be foggy in San Fran next week. Text to Pax of flight: "We're cancelling your flight to SFO. Please rebook other accommodations." Yeah... No.

There must be some temporal limit on Wx cancellations, right? If not, then yeah, as some folks have said, I guess somebody's got to pony up for the lawsuit and establish some precedent. In the absence of regulation, decency and common sense... legal action is the only means of redress left.
 
bimmerphile said:
Go read a contract of carriage and let us know?
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I was really hoping to avoid such hassle, my man. Somebody on this board must have some insight. :) Or is this one of those Purloined Letters, hidden in plain (plane) sight?
 
Mindsage25 said:
What luigi said. Any pre-cancels are done as a business decision from the company. Only time it matters is when the release has been committed and the flight is now under your control, then all changes regarding that flight have to go through the dispatcher. But before that I don’t really care
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You used the term... so now I ask that you define it: WTF is a "pre-cancel"? Please define and show your work.

Another example of why language matters, eh?
 
Luigi said:
Truth is flight cancellations like that are business decisions usually made far outside the realm of the dispatch. In my daily routine I look at the weather at my eta, and if it’s a difficult airport I will look at weather when I expect to depart. Outside of that, I let the business people decide what gets cancelled and to where.
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As I suspected... Business Decisions, not aviation decisions. And that's right to the heart of the question. Wx cancellations are supposed to based on part 121 regulatory restrictions and/or captain-decided safety-of-flight choices, not what the business office desires. Hell, the business office would rather every customer just gave the company their money and the airline never provided anything. That's the Vegas Commerce Model. That's where the real profits are.
My question is, how does the Contract of Carriage limit that kind of skullduggery?

Ancillary question: Why do you think large corporations are trying to limit the redress power of the people by limiting access to the courts and hobbling the legal profession?
 
jynxyjoe said:
Well. I think id have to see the details. This is pretty far afield from my job or my volunteer work.
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The details are almost none. And that's a HUGE part of the problem. A flight that was scheduled to arrive at 22:30CT was cancelled at 06:30CT. That was it. No other details. Only an option to rebook another flight. When the Pax went to rebook, one of the two options offered through the wiz-bang airline app was the SAME flight on which he had originally been booked. His girlfriend had her flight cancelled as well, a few minutes earlier. A different flight to a different city with a slightly later arrival time.

As reported to me, at the time of the multiple cancellations, the Pax actually thought the Iran hack had begun and he was being played (especially when he was offered his own confirmed flight as a re-book option).

All that said, I understand this is kind of outside a pilot's wheelhouse. I'm just looking for any industry insight, not expecting pristine legal advice. :)
 
Have you tried writing your congressman? Because I sure can’t help. Cancellations are frustrating, and dealing with passengers is tough. I want to always get passengers where they need to go, safely and comfortably. I pride myself in doing that. The unfortunate truth is that due to any number of factors it is not always possible. Sometimes, you know a city is going to go to hell. I’m talking SFO straight 19 config. In that case you got to cancel some flights. And if you get the wind forecast and everyone is saying SFO is gonna go to hell, well I don’t blame the office ATC peeps and the business people deciding to cancel some flights. And it’s probably even better to do it the day before so your passengers have more time to make alternative flight plans.

With a place like SFO you can guess that a fairly large percentage of people are connecting. Well now they can be rebooked 24 hours in advance to connect through SEA/PDX/LAX/SJC/PHX/LAS/DFW/DAL or what have you.
 
Luigi said:
Have you tried writing your congressman? Because I sure can’t help. Cancellations are frustrating, and dealing with passengers is tough. I want to always get passengers where they need to go, safely and comfortably. I pride myself in doing that. The unfortunate truth is that due to any number of factors it is not always possible. Sometimes, you know a city is going to go to hell. I’m talking SFO straight 19 config. In that case you got to cancel some flights. And if you get the wind forecast and everyone is saying SFO is gonna go to hell, well I don’t blame the office ATC peeps and the business people deciding to cancel some flights. And it’s probably even better to do it the day before so your passengers have more time to make alternative flight plans.

With a place like SFO you can guess that a fairly large percentage of people are connecting. Well now they can be rebooked 24 hours in advance to connect through SEA/PDX/LAX/SJC/PHX/LAS/DFW/DAL or what have you.
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Yeah, I get that, and that's fine. I, personally do that. But that's moments before push, not 16-18 hours in advance of the flight. NO PILOT made that "pre-cancel" decision. And the fact that someone on this board actually gave that bull-cocky a name, "pre-cancel" - in effect legitimizing it - is, hmmm.... vexing.

SFO was just an example. These flights were to the midwest... not to a place where it is almost always foggy in the summer.

I'm not giving specifics of people or carrier to protect the innocent and, well, just to be decent.

Also, I was traveling with these folks that day on the first leg of their flight. I talked to a couple of pilots for the airline involved. They both, independently, indicated that what was going on was bull-ony; it was not a Wx decision, it was a business decision... and the airline should pay up and make good to the folks
 
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How do we know a wx cancel in station XYZ where the weather is SKC isn't caused by a crew legality issue that happened due to a blizzard in ORD? I guess it could be investigated, but good luck. Having worked on the coordinator side of the room for a number of years, this stuff happens. I've seen it cause cancels 24 hours down the road as well. Root cause?? Blizzard in ORD.
 
who'swho said:
How do we know a wx cancel in station XYZ where the weather is SKC isn't caused by a crew legality issue that happened due to a blizzard in ORD? I guess it could be investigated, but good luck. Having worked on the coordinator side of the room for a number of years, this stuff happens. I've seen it cause cancels 24 hours down the road as well. Root cause?? Blizzard in ORD.
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Yeah, well, by that logic... the root cause of every airline problem is humans; They invented airlines. Let's rid the world of them all, eh?

Really? A crew legality (schedule) issue is now a Wx issue, and therefore, a passenger cost? Really?? No wonder everyone hates airlines.

Unless I'm severely misunderstanding you, WTF Dude?!? Another acolyte of the Vegas Commerce Program, eh?
 
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