Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happen.

Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

No I don't get what you are trying to say. Why would you plan to land at min fuel? If you are one minute late you are in violation of the FARs. I tend not to teach my students to do that. 15 minutes or a 30 minute leeway is not babying a student or any of the other things you insinuated.

I have never met (known) someone who flew within the Reg's, within the performance of the aircraft and within their limits who killed themselves. What insight do you have that requires you to add to them?
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I do.
Do I get the cookie.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

Douglas said:
No I don't get what you are trying to say. Why would you plan to land at min fuel? If you are one minute late you are in violation of the FARs. I tend not to teach my students to do that. 15 minutes or a 30 minute leeway is not babying a student or any of the other things you insinuated.


I do.
Do I get the cookie.
Click to expand...


No dog in the fight, BUT, landing with less than min fuel is completely legal, taking off with less than "planned" min fuel is illegal.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

dhc2tacksby said:
Just a little insight about me. I was taught by someone who aimed their teaching towards flying commercially in the bush, back in the 90's.

I have never met (known) someone who flew within the Reg's, within the performance of the aircraft and within their limits who killed themselves. What insight do you have that requires you to add to them?


I agree, a freshly minted PPL/CPL's does not know their limits and shouldn't be expected to ride on the ragged edge.
However, instructors need to show more students what MVFR looks like. What 17 knots does from the side and landing with 91.151 (91.167) mins keeps the engine running.
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For the bold portion, read the article: http://www.aopa.org/asf/hotspot/fuel_asrs.html

and refer to:
On a side not in my aerodynamics class we were taught that you need to know a few things about performance data for an aircraft:

1) Do you trust the person that published that data
2) Can you perform the given task exactly as prescribed in the manual to attain that data
3) Can your aircraft perform to the benchmark standards that the brand new aircraft did in this data
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All your friends must be pretty spoiled flying only aircraft that perform perfectly like new. Jump into a 30+ year old 152 that climbs at 400-500 feet a minute on a good day and your lucky to cruise at 95 and tell me you get bench mark. (These #s are fact to an aircraft on my line, the 2nd best.) Just for comparison the best does about 600-700 the worst I've seen as low as 300 and these were on stable smooth days overcast weather in NJ.


For the italics see my second quote again and note the bold section. Generally even a fresh PPL/CPL taught properly will perform within 5 percent (my guess can anyone confirm?) of aircraft performance. How hard is it to roll out, climb Vy to altitude, level off and fly a straight flight/descent/land while leaning to peak EGT or whatever you calculate for.

The point is, just like old cars don't always perform to the maximum standards, old aircraft don't either. Acceptable limits are far lower then the brand new factory released limits for things such as engine compression (Roger can you verify?).
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

i can't remember the exact number but performance charts in a POH are also created with an engine that is i think 10% more powerful than the standard off the line engine.

i don't push fuel, planning to the limits is ok, but i am not going to push it, and like i said if the weather is low, i will not be planning to the limits, well at least not w/o a diversion point along the way in case the actual performance is worse than planned (fuel)
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

BuickCFI said:
i can't remember the exact number but performance charts in a POH are also created with an engine that is i think 10% more powerful than the standard off the line engine.
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I have never heard of this and I am guessing someone just heard their CFI add 10 percent fudge factor and somehow interpreted it to mean that. Either way I don't know if it is right or wrong but I would love confirmation if someone has the aircraft limitations test flight information or something, thanks.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

i learned in multi ground school (part 141)

oh, and you have to remember than only Section 2 of the POH is approved by the FAA, the remaining sections can contain whatever the manufacturer wants because we have to remember that POH's are designed/written to SELL the airplane.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

BuickCFI said:
i learned in multi ground school (part 141)

oh, and you have to remember than only Section 2 of the POH is approved by the FAA, the remaining sections can contain whatever the manufacturer wants because we have to remember that POH's are designed/written to SELL the airplane.
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:yeahthat: This was right on my list:

"1) Do you trust the person that published that data"

and there is a reason it is the #1 point, good call on the presentation though, this probably would be easier to get across.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

Landing with (day/night/IFR) reserves is perfectly safe and LEGAL.
I'm of the school of thought that we should teach someone to fly, not just pass the next test.
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There is a huge difference between demonstrating the limits for students and encouraging students to push it to the limits...which it sounds like you're suggesting.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

There's no concrete rule to any of this, it all depends on pilot experience and the situation at hand. THAT is Rule #1 for ANY situation you encounter. (Crew limits are always more restricting than airplane limits...you can never outperform the airplane.)

Having been in low fuel and multiple life/death situations myself in a large aircraft, I am of the opinion that the low time PPL/CPL should be focusing on forming safe habit patterns and developing just enough SA to know when something is going wrong. If a PPL is landing with min fuel, then yes, I think he should have a little fear in his head, so it scares him into better planning next time.

However, as a CFI or someone over a few hundred hours, you should have the experience to know when you are still safe when up against the physical/legal limits of the airplane. You can certainly fly to mins all the time, but only if your original safe plan has been unsuccessful and you are confident in your ability to complete the flight.

For instance, as a PPL on a long XC I pushed the plane a bit far on fuel and saw the annunciators. It was enough to scare me a little into better planning and more attentive fuel estimation during flight. I also *might have* flown on a four-engine turbine that was down to gauge error.

Every situation is different, every pilot is different, every plane is different.

Be safe and conservative, and operate within your own limits when the time comes, and we'll all be a little safer.
 
Re: Wonder if this CFI is still wondering how he let it happ

There's no concrete rule to any of this, it all depends on pilot experience and the situation at hand. THAT is Rule #1 for ANY situation you encounter. (Crew limits are always more restricting than airplane limits...you can never outperform the airplane.)

Having been in low fuel and multiple life/death situations myself in a large aircraft, I am of the opinion that the low time PPL/CPL should be focusing on forming safe habit patterns and developing just enough SA to know when something is going wrong. If a PPL is landing with min fuel, then yes, I think he should have a little fear in his head, so it scares him into better planning next time.

However, as a CFI or someone over a few hundred hours, you should have the experience to know when you are still safe when up against the physical/legal limits of the airplane. You can certainly fly to mins all the time, but only if your original safe plan has been unsuccessful and you are confident in your ability to complete the flight.

For instance, as a PPL on a long XC I pushed the plane a bit far on fuel and saw the annunciators. It was enough to scare me a little into better planning and more attentive fuel estimation during flight. I also *might have* flown on a four-engine turbine that was down to gauge error.

Every situation is different, every pilot is different, every plane is different.

Be safe and conservative, and operate within your own limits when the time comes, and we'll all be a little safer.
 
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