Witnessed a near mid-air

ZeroPapaGolf

Well-Known Member
Sitting out here eating lunch at a restaurant right on Perdido Pass (orange beach AL), and a banner tow is headed north off the beach. A Super D is headed west just inland of the beach. Super D literally does a split-S to avoid hitting the banner tow broadside. It's the nearest near-miss I've ever seen. Keep your eyes up!
 
Being a witness to an accident sucks. It takes a little while to adjust back to normal. Thankfully no one was hurt.
 
I'm going to go ahead and label the Super D guy irresponsible. On the drive back from the restaurant I spotted him again, still doing aerobatic maneuvers at less than 2000 feet over the beach. What was that Forrest Gump said.... Something about stupid.
 
I'm going to go ahead and label the Super D guy irresponsible. On the drive back from the restaurant I spotted him again, still doing aerobatic maneuvers at less than 2000 feet over the beach. What was that Forrest Gump said.... Something about stupid.

Without a waiver, minimum altitude for aerobatics is 1,500' with some other considerations.
 
Tacky Jacks?

Cobalt

Without a waiver, minimum altitude for aerobatics is 1,500' with some other considerations.
91.303(a) would be the kicker here. Not to mention the constant stream of banner tow planes and Navy Texan IIs, T-38's, Beechjets, etc crossing over on approach to Pensacola. Just plain dumbness. Like doing aerobatics in the downwind at ORD.
 
Yeah, I'm amazed that place doesn't have more midairs. Lots of civilian traffic doing their thing, and lots of student military pilots and navs trolling around doing their thing......mostly not talking to one another.

I've only had a couple real close ones....as in scary close. First was flying a Bonanza down the columbia river gorge VFR. I'm going west to PDX at the appropriate VFR altitude, other guy is going east co-altitude, and also on the right/north side of the river which is kind of another deconfliction technique most people use up there. Picked him up at about a mile directly in front of me, immediately roll to knife edge and begin a very hasty descent. Guy never saw me as far as I can tell, as he never changed altitude or course.

Second one was doing some bombing flight out in the Fallon range. Wingman and I are reacting to a threat and we are already at 500' AGL when we start, and during the process, I lose sight of him. There is a lot of concurrent comm going out that is clogging the radio between our section and the other 2/section of jets with us. I barely get in a "blind" call (meaning I have lost sight of him), and right then I see the air to air TACAN go to 0.0 range. I was pretty sure that was going to be the last second of my life. Then the range starts increasing and he flows out to my other side and I start breathing again. Apparently he had gone below and behind me, which is certainly not where I expected him to be, and I had lost sight of him in the process of maneuvering. That being said, he did a good job of keeping sight of me while flying at 100' AGL and about 550 knots :)
 
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Apples and oranges. Being a populated area is debatable. The population of Chicago is 2.7M according to the 2010 census. Whereas Orange Beach, AL is 5,400. http://www.census.gov/popfinder/?fl=1714000:0157144

2,000 feet over the beach is still legal there. It's outside of PNS, not within four miles on an airway, etc...

I would be surprised if the FAA didn't consider a non-stop row of 15-story condos and crowded beaches to be a congested area.

Legal /= smart, in any case.
 
I would be surprised if the FAA didn't consider a non-stop row of 15-story condos and crowded beaches to be a congested area.

Legal /= smart, in any case.

Irresponsible, dumb and stupid you say. Normally I don't get excited over stuff posted on this forum, but when someone does something more than a standard rate turn- you label the pilot "irresponsible, dumb and stupid". Well, that bothers me. Granted, I wasn't there so I didn't see all of this take place, and I don't have all the facts (such as the other airplane, it's position and the altitude separation) but I can assume you are a pilot and you are labeling this other pilot like a uninformed news reporter, which irritates me. I fly aerobatics regularly, often several times a week and to read this, it disturbs me because someone could be saying this about me and that could jeopardize aerobatic flying for everyone even though all the legal requirements are met. In fact something like this taking place in the US right now. In that situation, a municipality cited a pilot for aerobatic flying within the city limits and the IAC is fighting hard to avoid this dangerous precedent from being set.

The facts as you stated: The pilot was in an aerobatic airplane, outside of B, C, D, & E airspace designated for an airport (based on your description of the location). You referred to this action as the "same as doing aerobatics in the downwind of ORD". Totally different circumstances based on locations. That would be Bravo airspace over a major city. The area you stated is outside of Naval Air Station Pensacola's Charlie airspace. This area is not within 4 miles of a victor airway. Congested area is debatable, the FAA doesn't have a firm ruling on congested, IE - a certain amount of population density determines congested, less than congested, sparsely and so on. So we can't elaborate on that detail.

As a pilot we are all critical of others actions, it's a personality trait we develop. Such as grading someone's landings. However, to call another pilot dumb, stupid and irresponsible is a bold move. Especially when they are 100% legal in their actions. Throwing those words around puts our flying freedoms in jeopardy.
 
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Irresponsible, dumb and stupid you say. Normally I don't get excited over stuff posted on this forum, but when someone does something more than a standard rate turn- you label the pilot "irresponsible, dumb and stupid". Well, that bothers me. Granted, I wasn't there so I didn't see all of this take place, and I don't have all the facts (such as the other airplane, it's position and the altitude separation) but I can assume you are a pilot and you are labeling this other pilot like a uninformed news reporter, which irritates me. I fly aerobatics regularly, often several times a week and to read this, it disturbs me because someone could be saying this about me and that could jeopardize aerobatic flying for everyone even though all the legal requirements are met. In fact something like this taking place in the US right now. In that situation, a municipality cited a pilot for aerobatic flying within the city limits and the IAC is fighting hard to avoid this dangerous precedent from being set.

The facts as you stated: The pilot was in an aerobatic airplane, outside of B, C, D, & E airspace designated for an airport (based on your description of the location). You referred to this action as the "same as doing aerobatics in the downwind of ORD". Totally different circumstances based on locations. That would be Bravo airspace over a major city. The area you stated is outside of Naval Air Station Pensacola's Charlie airspace. This area is not within 4 miles of a victor airway. Congested area is debatable, the FAA doesn't have a firm ruling on congested, IE - a certain amount of population density determines congested, less than congested, sparsely and so on. So we can't elaborate on that detail.

As a pilot we are all critical of others actions, it's a personality trait we develop. Such as grading someone's landings. However, to call another pilot dumb, stupid and irresponsible is a bold move. Especially when they are 100% legal in their actions. Throwing those words around puts our flying freedoms in jeopardy.

I appreciate this is a sensitive issue for you. Here are the facts as I witnessed them:

The pilot of the Super D was performing various maneuvers, including the immelmann to avoid the banner tow plane when I first noticed him (I incorrectly called this a Split-S). I'm not calling any names on the near-miss. I obviously don't have enough information as a ground observer to know what exactly happened to result in that situation, so I don't know who was at fault. I'm just glad they aren't dredging up airplane pieces.

My beef came shortly later when driving, when I noticed the same Super D doing aerobatics over the beach at a low altitude. By aerobatics, I don't mean "greater than a standard rate turn", this included inverted maneuvers. What was his altitude? You'd have to ask him. I can tell you the low end of his maneuvers was roughly the same level as the banner tow guys. This area has a steady stream of banner tow aircraft flying east along the beach, then west over the bay. You know how low banner tow guys fly.

So, with you being a responsible aerobatics-enjoying pilot, let me spell out the situation. You are guaranteed to have non-maneuverable traffic at lower altitude, the banner tow guys, every 5 or 10 minutes. You are guaranteed to have a military aircraft of some flavor fly directly through your area in the 2-3k foot range every couple of minutes. You've also got every Bubba and Bob that want to fly down the beach at 500' on arrival or departure to take a look. Or, you can go half a mile offshore, or a couple miles inshore, and have zero conflicting traffic. Which one is SMARTER?

I started this thread as a 'wow, look at that' thread, not to step on peoples toes. I'm all for aviation freedom whenever possible. You're absolutely right, this guy was probably legal, or real close to legal. That doesn't make it wise. It just reads too much like an NTSB report.

As for maintaining freedoms, you do that by being cautious enough that you never give 'the man' an unavoidable reason to restrict them. Such as balling it up on a probably-but-not-definitely congested area.
 
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Thank you, and I apologize if that came off in any way, shape, or form as a personal attack. It was not my intention to start an internet fight, the inflection of some statements can be hard to read on the internet. My blood pressure rises when aerobatics is perceived as showing off or a reckless activity. It is far from it. Aerobatic pilots are always on the defense because of the public's perception that we are just out joyriding in the sky. Although, as with anything, there are a few bad cases. Such as the guy over the Santa Monica pier in a L-39 a couple years ago.

I'm not sure of your aerobatic experience, or anyone else reading this thread, so forgive me if this isn't the first time you've heard this but, aerobatics isn't always about thrill seeking. Sure it has that appearance to most non-pilots, and sometimes it is thrill seeking. I take non-pilots and non-aerobatic pilots up all the time for a "thrill ride". Which is really just a roller coaster style of a ride, with things you can't do at a theme park or in a Skyhawk. If someone thinks a precision maneuver like steep turns for private or commercial was difficult with +/- 100ft tolerances, magnify that challenge several times over and add several maneuvers back to back without interruption. A series of maneuvers in which g loading, pitch, altitude, airspeed, roll and yaw are constantly changing. Now that's aerobatics! Or the power off 180 you learn in an Arrow for the commercial. Sure it is exciting for a 250 hour pilot, sinking at about 1,100fpm trying to land on the numbers with an examiner critiquing you in the other seat. Double that decent rate, and remove all forward visibility and you have a Pitts landing - 2,200fpm at 100mph. During Pitts touch and go's you're not even flying inverted but it still gets your heart rate up. That's the end of my 'aerobatics is fun' speech.

Back on topic. You're right, where that Super D was may not have been the best place to do what they were doing. Considering the banner towing, sight seeing and transient traffic. Banner towing is generally done at 500', so they shouldn't be a factor to someone at a normal altitude. However it may be based nearby at Jack Edwards Field (JKA) and that's part of an aerobatic ride they offer. Quick flight over the beach, etc... Having a good reference like shoreline helps non-aerobatic people keep their orientation while flying. I wish I could fly aerobatics over the beach where I live, it would help passengers out tremendously but I can't because of a victor airway. Instead I have to do it over some crops, dirt fields and other less prominent landmarks because of the other factors in 91.303.
 
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