Winter Woes

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
You're lined on final in your C-12 / BE-200, in VMC below the 1500' ceiling ... gear down, flaps at approach ... cleared to land and tower advises braking action poor from two recent arrivals (jets). Airfield maintenance also last reported braking action poor. This is contrary to the NOTAMS you got before the flight.
The Colonel has very important military business to attend to and his driver is standing by at the FBO.

What do you do? What options are available?

Don't tell me what you think I want to hear ... tell me what you would do.

This is real life baby!
 
I would land. Presumably the be-200 can touch down and land at a slower speed than the previous two jets with the poor report. Throw the props into reverse and the thing will slow down nicely. This assuming no op specs prohibit landing with a poor report, and the runway length is reasonable.
 
Well....I have no experience on the A/C but from a good friend that flew the left side.

Seriously though, he has told me that he can just about stop the aircraft with the props. Depending on the length of the runway I would think that you would have no problem getting the A/C stopped.

That being said, if I was relatively inexperienced in the plane. I would guess that I may have to go to the alternate or hold for a short time until the RW can get cleaned up.

I realize that it is a "Colonel", but no matter who is in back, the PIC has the responsibility for the flight and safety of pax and crew. I would hope that the Colonel understands that.
 
added information:

SOP says pilots will not attemp take offs / landings on a runway with a report of poor.

But this is just an SOP it's not a regulation ... right?

Besides I know I can handle this, heck I've landed on snow covered
runways before they came out with this darn SOP.

You guys are right the props with the condition levers in high idle will
stop this pig on a dime and give you change.

And remember that Colonel ...

Besides all that I'm not the PIC on this flight ... so I have no responsability if it doesn't work out.

How am I to handle this?
 
C650CPT said:
added information:

SOP says pilots will not attemp take offs / landings on a runway with a report of poor.

But this is just an SOP it's not a regulation ... right?

Besides I know I can handle this, heck I've landed on snow covered
runways before they came out with this darn SOP.

You guys are right the props with the condition levers in high idle will
stop this pig on a dime and give you change.

And remember that Colonel ...

Besides all that I'm not the PIC on this flight ... so I have no responsability if it doesn't work out.

How am I to handle this?

If the SOP says......can't do it, then I would have to go with that. I don't think it matters if it is a regulation or not. If the plane clanks the rw or slides off the side.....I can just see the powers that be "saying why did you land with a report of poor".

Ah yes, the Colonel again. I really think one has to say I don't care who is in the back seat. Safety has to come first no matter who is in the back.

Although you are not the PIC, you still have some responsibility. If you feel the PIC is doing something he or she shouldn't be, then you would have to speak up.
 
C650CPT said:
added information:

SOP says pilots will not attemp take offs / landings on a runway with a report of poor.

But this is just an SOP it's not a regulation ... right?

.....

But know you have me thinking something else Jim.

SOP says no takeoffs with a report of poor braking. My question is does the report have to come from the same type of A/C. "Poor" braking in a Citation or other jet, may not be "Poor" braking in the BE200 or C172.

Kind of like "moderate: turbulence in the C172 may not even register to the Citation or bigger jet for that matter.
 
That's a tough one. Are there any alternate airports? Are they planning on salting/clearing the runways anytime soon?

If I'm on a flight that has to be done (and sometimes, you do have to land), I'd land. You can get an airplane like a King Air down and stopped, and there's always the option of a rejected landing if things start getting nasty.

I'd discuss it as a crew, discuss the options, and probably advise the VIP. If (s)he decides that an alternate airport is ok, then the problem solved. I'd also advise that there may not be a choice if there's any trouble with the landing attempt. If the other pilot concurs, and the VIP really needs to get on the field, I'd land.
 
What's the length and width of the runway? If you're landing on the 16,000' runway at Denver, I have to think you'll be fine in the B200. However, if you're landing on a runway 5000' x 75' it'll be a little more tricky. And I agree with E_Dawg, the jets are probably going to have a little less braking action due to the speed.

With that being said, I'd have to go with what the SOP says. It's there for a reason. However, if there are no other suitable airports nearby and fuel is an issue, I guess you're going to have to land.
 
CYA.

SOP says no go and you have a braking report from something other than a jet (i.e. a calibrated maintence truck) you don't land. If the PIC want's to push it you voice your opinion in a nice manner. If you really think it's bad juj-ju you bring ATC into the fray.

The last thing you do is bring a PAX into your decision cycle.

If the Colonel has a problem with being alive ...
 
From the previous jet "arrivals" that must have landed (to a stop), the 200 should be able to do the same with little problems.

I think most of you are right, you've got to CYA when it comes to the SOP. If it says "no landing with poor reports" then you'd better not land until you get a non-poor report. The odds are noting will happen but if it does you know the authorities (and the insurance companies) will be blaming whomever is in the cockpit (PIC or not).


I would advise the Colonel that we will be slightly delayed and that he might want to call his driver to have him relay the message to his important people that he is meeting. Give it some time and let a smaller (200 or smaller) aircraft give you a report. Surely in the next 15-30 minutes, someone else will land or the runway will be cleared.

Dang weather!!!:mad:

Oh yeah, forgot about the truck!!! Guess you'll have to hold.
 
OK, good responses. Let me break it down a little for ya ... as I sees it.

Number 1: Short Final is NOT the place to be making the decision ... this information was available sooner.

The ATIS was vague and there was nothing but Fair braking action reported on the Notams we checked prior to flight. When the PIC checked ATIS I asked him to acertain the runway condition, he didn't, thinking it could be accomplished like a wind check on short final. Had the PIC qualified the runway as poor, we would still have had 20 min. prior to our final approach to request for the airport authority to plow / treat the runway. This would have definately increased the chances for us to successfully and safely land at our intended airport. I would rather have used the enroute time to my advantage in improving the situation rather than holding over the field ... time is money. Also by makeing the decision to divert and getting the Colonel's driver to head to the better airport we minimized any further time delays.

As far as the SOP goes, it is there to protect me from myself. Of course I could have landed the airplane in those conditions( I'm a great pilot ) but some one else thought better and didn't want me taking chances with THIER airplane. I don't have to agree with the SOP but I do need to exercise good pilot discipline and follow it. If I don't agree with it there is a proper way to challenge it and if successful get it changed. One small side note ... I miss quoted the SOP it is Pilot's decision to Land / take off with a report of poor, it is with a report of nil that we are prohibited from attempting a take off or landing. Did I make the wrong decision? I don't think so but perhaps for the wrong reason.

Everyone recognizes an important fact ... the passengers have NO place in the decsion making process, yet you need to inform them of what is happening and the options that are available (customer service), if you can lead them to "make" the logicall conclusion everyone wins.

As far as runway length goes, if it is contaminated you can run off the side just as easily (especially by going into aggressive reversing), as you could off the end of a runway. Be Careful. I would consider the only time I need to land is if I'm on fire or out of gas ... other than that take time to improve the situation if you can or change the scenario all together. I know it is hard to "fail" by not landing ... but is it really a failure? I think our failure that day was in waiting until final to make some very important decisions.

What we did:

We ( the flight crew ) decided to go around and reject the landing ... we advised ATC that we would like to divert from Alleghany County to Pittsburgh Intl. about 10 miles away. We told the Colonel of our plan and advised him that his driver was already heading for PIT. The driver arrived at the FBO in PIT about 10 min after we shut down. There was plenty of cushion in the Colonels time line so this wasn't even an inconvience, in fact PIT was closer to his destination than AGC. The added bonus of this was when it was time to depart I had a very long runway vs a not so very long runway.

Have fun but be careful and make good decisons and this can and will be a very rewarding career.

Jim
 
Ask this prominent figure if he'd like to die. Just kidding. Might get some charges on that one. But really I am sure no one was the oh so glorious colonel dead--epecially the colonel.
 
Lots of things you need to consider here. I'll relate an experience I had in a minute after a few things here.

First, what are the runway dimensions? Long runway, wide, or short and thin? Grooved, or not? Large airport with various runways, or just one single runway for arrival? I'd consider landing with poor braking action on a 10,000 foot x 150 foot runway if my alternative was fair braking action at the alternate with a 5000 foot x 100 foot runway. Also, how are the other weather conditions? Good visibility? Snow? Low ceilings? I'd consider better visibility, calmer winds, and no active snow/rain to come into major play here. I'd rather not land anywhere with poor braking action with a tailwind or gusty crosswind conditions that might create directional control problems.

I wouldn't make this decision on short final. I'd just go-around if I had the fuel available, and analyse the situation more. Where is my alternate? What other alternates might be available?

Key is not to be unprepared for a decision like this. If you know it might be "iffy" for landing, have some other plans of action in mind. Get weather reports from nearby airports. Find how much fuel it will take to divert. What airports are open, closed, etc.? I'm not sure how the military does it, but we practically get a book with METARs, TAFs, and NOTAMs for surrounding airports. I'd take a look at these and see what might be a decent alternative. Don't rush, but don't waste precious gas.


Now a personal story: We were flying a long leg into TUL one night, which was reporting very gusty wind conditions and turbulence. Good visibility. Alternate was west to OKC. Previous aircraft were diverting to XNA, only 10 minutes away.

We ended up getting a windshear caution on short final and had to go-around. We had decided to follow another company aircraft to XNA, after pulling up the weather on ACARS seeing 13 knot winds compared to OKC with 20G25 knot winds. Figured OKC was in the same boat as TUL with the front moving through.

What we didn't realize is we were right at the edge of the front. When we got to XNA, there were some scattered rainshowers around the airport causing heavy rain on final, and the winds were picking up to 25 knots and gusty. We bumped down final with dwindling gas in rain and lightning nearby hoping not to get a windshear again.

Looking back, it might have been advisable to see the trends for OKC and XNA. XNA obviously looked OK, but was getting worse. OKC may have been getting better, and was only about 40 miles farther I believe for the diversion. Plus, it may have had better facilities and runway arrangement for us.

Don't just use basic information to come up with decisions. Use all info. Look at your Jepps, and see how large the airport is. Runway distances, facilities, and options nearby the alternate. Get weather trends. Look at the Surface Analysis chart, Radar Summary chart, and forecast wind charts for your Flight Level when you are getting ready to leave. Don't just rely on a METAR or TAF. They are only good for the 5 mile radius around the airport.

We made it safe to our changed alternate, but looking back I would have liked to have been more prepared and had more information available. Use all resources, like dispatch, ATC, and each other to come up with the more solid plan.

In my example, I don't feel we did anything unsafe, because we made the best decision based on the information we had available at the time after a three hour flight. This was gathered while trying to fly in moderate turbulence during descent as well. Plan early.
 
JDE said:
...And I agree with E_Dawg, the jets are probably going to have a little less braking action due to the speed.
On the other hand.....
Jets have "anti skid" protection and the King Airs don't.
The jet is probably heavier and has more "rubber on the road" also.
Reverse in snow in a jet and you can still see fwd.
Reverse in snow in a King Air and you get "white out."
 
Back
Top