I was landing Tuesday morning and it was very windy. I only had flaps at 10 degrees because I didn't want to slow down very much. As I appoached I began having to use a lot of rudder due to the wind blowing me around a bit. Okay a lot. After finally getting level I put her down okay, but did I do this right?
Windy landings and rudder use?
- Thread starter JGriffis
- Start date
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Just keep her going straight down the runway.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I was landing Tuesday morning and it was very windy. I only had flaps at 10 degrees because I didn't want to slow down very much.
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Very interesting you should say that!
On my last checkride, I was landing with about 8 knots of crosswind, gusting to about 20. Like most good Cessna drivers, I approached and landed with 10 degrees of flaps, and 6-10 knots of extra speed over the fence. I managed to get her down and settle without too much excitement, and taxied off of the runway to parking.
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
I was landing Tuesday morning and it was very windy. I only had flaps at 10 degrees because I didn't want to slow down very much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very interesting you should say that!
On my last checkride, I was landing with about 8 knots of crosswind, gusting to about 20. Like most good Cessna drivers, I approached and landed with 10 degrees of flaps, and 6-10 knots of extra speed over the fence. I managed to get her down and settle without too much excitement, and taxied off of the runway to parking.
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
[ QUOTE ]
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
[/ QUOTE ]
That just sounds like he is justifying getthereitis. Who cares how long it takes to land, unless you are running out of fuel or runway.
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
[/ QUOTE ]
That just sounds like he is justifying getthereitis. Who cares how long it takes to land, unless you are running out of fuel or runway.
Wm226
Well-Known Member
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Another ? When you are flying say a 737 or a bigger plane like that does it decrese the amount of rudder you have to apply during these landing situations?
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I would guess so... they are much larger planes and therefore are less prone to the types of dangers that smaller GA aircraft encounter (example: wake turbulence).
Another ? When you are flying say a 737 or a bigger plane like that does it decrese the amount of rudder you have to apply during these landing situations?
[/ QUOTE ]
I would guess so... they are much larger planes and therefore are less prone to the types of dangers that smaller GA aircraft encounter (example: wake turbulence).
Acadia
Well-Known Member
Ditto and on gusty days you are supposed to fly faster to allow for the gust factor. More flaps also tend to equal more surface area for gusts to interact with and knock you around. With GA aircraft generally you get a noticeably smoother ride with less flaps in these conditions. Little or even zero flaps and slightly higher approach speeds are pretty standard on gusty wind days.
B767Driver
New Member
As always consult your Pilot's Operating Handbook, Normal Procedures section for guidance on landing flap selection. The POH for my Piper Warrior states that for "high wind conditions, particularly strong crosswind, it may be desirable to approach the ground with higher than normal speeds and with partial or no flaps." It is interesting however, that the manufacturer only gives landing performance for 40 degrees (full flaps) and not for partial flaps!
I believe the flap selection is at the pilot's discretion and judgement and appurtenant to that judgement is the pilot's ability to select a runway that is suitable for the conditions, i.e. add 200% to the flaps 40 landing distance to account for the additional speed on final due to the decreased flap setting and wind gust correction.
I believe the flap selection is at the pilot's discretion and judgement and appurtenant to that judgement is the pilot's ability to select a runway that is suitable for the conditions, i.e. add 200% to the flaps 40 landing distance to account for the additional speed on final due to the decreased flap setting and wind gust correction.
UIPilot45X
Well-Known Member
Yea, i agree with the rest, if its a windy day, use whatever flap settings you think are best. You are pilot in command, remember that. As for rudder, use whatever rudder correction you need to keep the nose of the aircraft pointed straight down the runway. Also, remember that the maximum demonstrated crosswind was demonstrated with a test pilot, with full flaps, and at the designated final approach speed. You can usually land a plane above the demonstrated crosswind if you leave the flaps off and keep the speed up.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
[/ QUOTE ]It's really a pilot discretion/style/comfort issue. Once we get past POH recommendations, both the less flap/higher airspeed and the full flap/normal airspeed people have some support.
The less flap/higher airspeed people point to control issues. As we know from slow flight practice, the slower we go, the less effective the controls become and it's nice to have as much control effectiveness as possible to combat the drift and weathervaning tendency in a crosswind.
The all flap/1.3 Vso people point to the more solid arrival this produces, which reduces the chances of being blown sideways once you make contact with the ground and the lower speed itself, which reduces the potential for damage in case there =is= an accident.
I was originally taught the less flap method and was left with the definite impression that landing with full flaps would be downright dangerous. I couldn't image =anyone= landing on a short field with a substantial crosswind! Then, while I was working on my CFI, I mentioned this to my CFI and we found a nice day with a 15 KT crosswind component and did full flap short field landings. The airplane handled just fine.
Personally, I prefer the less flap method. But now I know that I can do the other and not bend metal.
During the debrief, my examiner told me that I should have used every bit of flaps available (40 degrees in this particular aircraft). His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
Yeah, sounded strange to me too....anybody else hear of that, and what do you think about it??
[/ QUOTE ]It's really a pilot discretion/style/comfort issue. Once we get past POH recommendations, both the less flap/higher airspeed and the full flap/normal airspeed people have some support.
The less flap/higher airspeed people point to control issues. As we know from slow flight practice, the slower we go, the less effective the controls become and it's nice to have as much control effectiveness as possible to combat the drift and weathervaning tendency in a crosswind.
The all flap/1.3 Vso people point to the more solid arrival this produces, which reduces the chances of being blown sideways once you make contact with the ground and the lower speed itself, which reduces the potential for damage in case there =is= an accident.
I was originally taught the less flap method and was left with the definite impression that landing with full flaps would be downright dangerous. I couldn't image =anyone= landing on a short field with a substantial crosswind! Then, while I was working on my CFI, I mentioned this to my CFI and we found a nice day with a 15 KT crosswind component and did full flap short field landings. The airplane handled just fine.
Personally, I prefer the less flap method. But now I know that I can do the other and not bend metal.
Acadia
Well-Known Member
Don’t forget the PTS:
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Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, =10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied .
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Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook: Turbulent Air Approach and Landing
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Power-on approaches at airspeed slightly above the normal approach speed should be used for landing in turbulent air. This provides for more positive control of the airplane when strong horizontal wind gusts, or up and down drafts, is experienced
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, =10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied .
[/ QUOTE ]
Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook: Turbulent Air Approach and Landing
[ QUOTE ]
Power-on approaches at airspeed slightly above the normal approach speed should be used for landing in turbulent air. This provides for more positive control of the airplane when strong horizontal wind gusts, or up and down drafts, is experienced
[/ QUOTE ]
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Don’t forget the PTS: [ QUOTE ]
Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, =10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied .
[/ QUOTE ] Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook: Turbulent Air Approach and Landing[ QUOTE ]
Power-on approaches at airspeed slightly above the normal approach speed should be used for landing in turbulent air. This provides for more positive control of the airplane when strong horizontal wind gusts, or up and down drafts, is experienced
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely! I wouldn't think of forgetting that if there are gusts or turbulence.
Don’t forget the PTS: [ QUOTE ]
Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, =10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied .
[/ QUOTE ] Also from the Airplane Flying Handbook: Turbulent Air Approach and Landing[ QUOTE ]
Power-on approaches at airspeed slightly above the normal approach speed should be used for landing in turbulent air. This provides for more positive control of the airplane when strong horizontal wind gusts, or up and down drafts, is experienced
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely! I wouldn't think of forgetting that if there are gusts or turbulence.
naunga
New Member
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His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but remember that flaps all the wings to continue to generate lift at slower speeds. Which means you'll have to really put it down nose high to stop the wings from generating lift.
I was really having problems with X-wind landings until I went up with our chief CFI. He had me do one with some flaps and then one with no flaps. No flaps (for me anyhow) was much smoother and easier to control.
My two cents.
Naunga
His opinion is that when the wind is blowing that hard, you want to do whatever you can to get on the ground as fast as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but remember that flaps all the wings to continue to generate lift at slower speeds. Which means you'll have to really put it down nose high to stop the wings from generating lift.
I was really having problems with X-wind landings until I went up with our chief CFI. He had me do one with some flaps and then one with no flaps. No flaps (for me anyhow) was much smoother and easier to control.
My two cents.
Naunga
davetheflyer
New Member
I typically taught that crosswind landings are easier with less than full flaps, partly due to the higher approach speeds. The flip side to that is that if you land with full flaps, then retract them quickly on landing, the airplane stays planted on the ground regardless of gusts.
The DoJet is a tricky airplane to land in a crosswind due to its high wing, narrow gear, and the fact that it has (always full) feeder tanks in the wingtips. Consequently, it can take a LOT of crab (rudder) and/or sideslip (aileron). We have a 24 knot crosswind limitation that cannot be exceeded.
Last Sunday we were flying to TRI when the wind gusted to 41 knots (35 knots crosswind component) with a thunderstorm in the area. Since this was much worse than forecast, we didn't have an alternate and had limited fuel. We started looking around and all the airports in range had NE-SW runway orientation. The few runways that faced into the wind were too short, but would have been workable in a pinch. Finally, as we flew west past TYS, the wind dropped to 15 knots long enough for us to land. That was some of the roughest and strongest winds that I have ever seen, much less flown in.
The DoJet is a tricky airplane to land in a crosswind due to its high wing, narrow gear, and the fact that it has (always full) feeder tanks in the wingtips. Consequently, it can take a LOT of crab (rudder) and/or sideslip (aileron). We have a 24 knot crosswind limitation that cannot be exceeded.
Last Sunday we were flying to TRI when the wind gusted to 41 knots (35 knots crosswind component) with a thunderstorm in the area. Since this was much worse than forecast, we didn't have an alternate and had limited fuel. We started looking around and all the airports in range had NE-SW runway orientation. The few runways that faced into the wind were too short, but would have been workable in a pinch. Finally, as we flew west past TYS, the wind dropped to 15 knots long enough for us to land. That was some of the roughest and strongest winds that I have ever seen, much less flown in.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Last Sunday we were flying to TRI when the wind gusted to 41 knots (35 knots crosswind component) with a thunderstorm in the area.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really nasty last Sunday here in TN.
I was going to fly on Sunday, but as we were walking out the door I called the AWOS and decided that it was just a tad too windy to fly!! The next morning, we read about a light plane that flipped over due to the wind...
.
Last Sunday we were flying to TRI when the wind gusted to 41 knots (35 knots crosswind component) with a thunderstorm in the area.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really nasty last Sunday here in TN.
I was going to fly on Sunday, but as we were walking out the door I called the AWOS and decided that it was just a tad too windy to fly!! The next morning, we read about a light plane that flipped over due to the wind...
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it was just a tad bit bumpy today here. I knocked my headphone cord out with my knee on one of the bumps. I was wondering why the frequency got so quiet, and just my luck, ATC was talking to me when I did that. Took about 30 seconds to figure it out, and boy did I get a lecture when I came back on frequency.
DrBenny
New Member
Perhaps a better choice with the 172 (1980) is to select 20 degrees. If you had to go around, there isn't as much drag at 20 degrees.
Now, you have to watch it with thinking that going slower gives you less control. Remember that lowering flaps lowers your stall speed. You want to do two things: 1) Fly to and through the flare under control, and 2) Touch down and roll out under control.
Now, if you are so slow that the application of full rudder is not enough to straighten you out (you may wish to test this on final), then you are landing in too much of a crosswind. My personal preference would be to select or request another runway, or land somewhere else. I am not going to land and "see what I can do."
Another point to clarify: do not add anything to your approach speed to compensate for a crosswind. Do not add anything. If you approach at 60 kts, you still approach at 60 kts. You add some airspeed for a gust factor, not a steady-state crosswind.
The other point to consider is that if you are used to 40 degrees of flaps, and you suddenly are using 10 or none, your landing attitude will be different. When you pull to the normal flare attitude, you may find yourself in a different world which, in turn, create more of a hazard for you than if you had simply used 20 or 30 degrees of flaps in the first place. Remember, too, that when you pull the nose up, it wants to go left. With no flaps or 10 degrees, your nose will be higher for a longer period of time, unless you force the plane onto the runway (bad idea).
Now, you have to watch it with thinking that going slower gives you less control. Remember that lowering flaps lowers your stall speed. You want to do two things: 1) Fly to and through the flare under control, and 2) Touch down and roll out under control.
Now, if you are so slow that the application of full rudder is not enough to straighten you out (you may wish to test this on final), then you are landing in too much of a crosswind. My personal preference would be to select or request another runway, or land somewhere else. I am not going to land and "see what I can do."
Another point to clarify: do not add anything to your approach speed to compensate for a crosswind. Do not add anything. If you approach at 60 kts, you still approach at 60 kts. You add some airspeed for a gust factor, not a steady-state crosswind.
The other point to consider is that if you are used to 40 degrees of flaps, and you suddenly are using 10 or none, your landing attitude will be different. When you pull to the normal flare attitude, you may find yourself in a different world which, in turn, create more of a hazard for you than if you had simply used 20 or 30 degrees of flaps in the first place. Remember, too, that when you pull the nose up, it wants to go left. With no flaps or 10 degrees, your nose will be higher for a longer period of time, unless you force the plane onto the runway (bad idea).