will it change?

CFIse said:
Well - with all due respect - this is part of the problem the pilot group currently has - we have an excessve regard for our position in life.
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No, I think this is the problem: We have little regard for our position in life. We think this job has gone to hell, so why bother to work hard, maintain a professional appearance, or maintain a professional demeanor? How often have you heard a pilot say, "They don't pay me enough to take care of my uniform." The reason we don't gather respect anymore from the general public and fellow employees is in direct relation to our own self respect.

As a pilot, I feel I am no better a person than that bus driver is. But I do feel my responsibility and the requirements for my profession highly exceed that of the bus driver. The medical requirements, physical demands, requirements for health and hygene/exercise, costs for training, constant required study, experience and talent required for operating the aircraft, and so on.

So often I see pilots being berated by gate agents, rampers, or passengers and not saying a thing in their own defense. I for one feel that this profession demands a certain amount of respect, due to the demanding nature of it. In return though, I will always provide all passengers and employees with the respect they deserve (which is a lot) and I will also always work to maintain a professional appearance and demeanor with them. I also will work hard to ensure that I'm prepared and knowledgable to operate the aircraft safely like my career demands. So when it comes to passengers or fellow employees, I will not take disrespect. This also holds true for negotiations with management in terms of benefits and work rules. Doesn't mean I'm a dick, just means I have enough self respect and know what this job entails. No illusions of grandeur.

So after all of this, if you still believe I have an excessive regard for my position in life, then fine. That is your opinion. I for one feel that all pilots deserve the respect associated with the demanding position. However, I also feel we must earn it; I don't think many of us right now are working to earn that respect, most particularly at the regional level.
 
FlyChicaga said:
No, I think this is the problem: We have little regard for our position in life. We think this job has gone to hell, so why bother to work hard, maintain a professional appearance, or maintain a professional demeanor? How often have you heard a pilot say, "They don't pay me enough to take care of my uniform." The reason we don't gather respect anymore from the general public and fellow employees is in direct relation to our own self respect.

As a pilot, I feel I am no better a person than that bus driver is. But I do feel my responsibility and the requirements for my profession highly exceed that of the bus driver. The medical requirements, physical demands, requirements for health and hygene/exercise, costs for training, constant required study, experience and talent required for operating the aircraft, and so on.

So often I see pilots being berated by gate agents, rampers, or passengers and not saying a thing in their own defense. I for one feel that this profession demands a certain amount of respect, due to the demanding nature of it. In return though, I will always provide all passengers and employees with the respect they deserve (which is a lot) and I will also always work to maintain a professional appearance and demeanor with them. I also will work hard to ensure that I'm prepared and knowledgable to operate the aircraft safely like my career demands. So when it comes to passengers or fellow employees, I will not take disrespect. This also holds true for negotiations with management in terms of benefits and work rules. Doesn't mean I'm a dick, just means I have enough self respect and know what this job entails. No illusions of grandeur.

So after all of this, if you still believe I have an excessive regard for my position in life, then fine. That is your opinion. I for one feel that all pilots deserve the respect associated with the demanding position. However, I also feel we must earn it; I don't think many of us right now are working to earn that respect, most particularly at the regional level.
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Here is a true professional.

One trait of a professional...."Doing the right thing whether you feel like it or not."
 
CFIse said:
But look how society values pilots? Not much - we used to be sky gods, now many of us are getting paid the same as bus drivers and valued about as much. But you say "we are more skilled" - which may be true, but the enviable Part 121 accident record would tend to prove you can take most people (at least enough people) and teach them to fly a jet - you may not agree with that, but it's being done every day, so it's true.

This is no longer a job done by supermen (if it ever was) and it's never going to be paid as if the job is being done by supermen again. Which is the basis of this thread - will the pilot career ever return to what is was - no!
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I'll preface this by saying...I really don't derive any satisfaction by the public's perception of my career. I derive my satisfaction from knowing I did the best I could to reach my potential. Striving for that goal on every flight is a source of pride and satisfaction for professionals. Can you get to your destination with the planned amount of fuel? Yes. But did you get to your destination with 5% more because of the way you planned your descent and configuration changes optimally? The public doesn't know or care if you did this...but the professional in you does...and should provide a level of satisfaction. It will for real pilots.

Having said that...I was watching the PGA Tour in Miami at Doral on TV last week...the golf course is 800' below the G/S for Rwy 12 at KMIA. The golf pro's and television commentators were in awe of the jets flying directly overhead. Many times a group of golfers would suspend play and watch the jets fly overhead. It was special to watch others so engrossed in the fabulous flying machinges.

I don't know too many people who think they are supermen for flying. But it does take a special talent. The qualified pool of pilots and the sources for them are numerous...but I have seen a good percentage of pilots wash out of training when they upgraded to larger airplanes. I was once told that the wash out rate at one of the 'nationals' that fly DC9 derivatives was close to 50%. At another national it was common to lose a pilot in every new hire class. At one major...guys were career f/0s because they could not meet the upgrade qualification. I used to be in the training department at a commuter...wash outs happened there.

So, it doesn't take superman to fly...but you can't be an idiot either. If you see someone in the left seat of an airplane...they deserve a lot of respect. The line they towed to get to that left seat was pretty narrow.
 
CFIse said:
Airline pilot is going to be an average, lower middle class salary with better than average days off, but worse than average nights away from home.
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Do you have any idea what the average middle class salary is? It ranges from 30-50k per year. The average income for the ENTIRE US is around 35k per year. To be sure, the airline wages will probably not return to what they once were, but they will have to drop a LOT more from CURRENT levels to hit the average lower middle class.
 
Ralgha said:
The average income for the ENTIRE US is around 35k per year.
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It's $43,000 per household, a number I've memorized for arguments on here about "sub-standard pay". But the thing is that I'd venture to say a lot of pilots come from "well-to-do" families (because flight training is expensive) where they expect the level of luxury that they grew up with. It's a natural desire, but it's not necessarily something I'd voice in a public locale. I went with a friend (who shall remain nameless but has lived a privledged life) to Goodwill and the poor guy was literally afraid of the place. It was an interesting experience.
 
"I went with a friend (who shall remain nameless but has lived a privledged life) to Goodwill and the poor guy was literally afraid of the place"

Thrift stores rock. I go there looking for local high school and Gonzaga basketball t shirts. I'm more afraid to go into Wal Mart.
 
DE727UPS said:
Thrift stores rock. I go there looking for local high school and Gonzaga basketball t shirts. I'm more afraid to go into Wal Mart.
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$17.99 ain't bad for a suit either, especially if you don't mind that someone died in it / old man stink :)
 
Wouldn't it be nice to let a passenger sit up front and see what we REALLY do? Perhaps that might change some opinions.
 
"While people hate ALPA, IMO it has done a good job of setting high payrates when you look at what pilots actually do for a living. "


Are you freaking for real? What pilots do for a living? We transport humans across the globe safely and keep them from harms way. Not many others in the world can be trained proficiently to do that at the level of expertise that we can. Have some freaking respect for this profession. Not sure if your a professional, or just another wannabe trying to tell us how it should be.

I could pound my head on the wall all day long trying to figure out why people think so poorly of this profession. Deep breaths. Deep breaths.
 
Chris_Ford said:
It's $43,000 per household, a number I've memorized for arguments on here about "sub-standard pay". But the thing is that I'd venture to say a lot of pilots come from "well-to-do" families (because flight training is expensive) where they expect the level of luxury that they grew up with. It's a natural desire, but it's not necessarily something I'd voice in a public locale. I went with a friend (who shall remain nameless but has lived a privledged life) to Goodwill and the poor guy was literally afraid of the place. It was an interesting experience.
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For a single person, it's $37,440 according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
 
mrivc211 said:
Not many others in the world can be trained proficiently to do that at the level of expertise that we can.
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Most people could probably do this job just as well as we do. They lack the motivation, money, time, opprotunity, etc.

I had a nice long reply all written up, then my browser decided to crash, so I'll summarize in two sentances.

By and large, the job is cake. The big money is deserved for the times that it is not cake.
 
buffalopilot said:
I ask questions because I have a passion for this career and I hate to see it go down the tubes. I want the opinion of the experienced pilots, which is why i ask. I dont have a h --- on to fly planes if there is no future in this career. Educated people ask questions. At least i dont say crap about headsets.
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...yea but you always ask the same questions and get the same answer...but keep asking the same questions. Look if you want to be a pilot do it but know what your getting into ahead of time and deal with it already. But stop trying to always make a "safe bet" because there is no safe bet in this industry!
 
Ralgha said:
By and large, the job is cake. The big money is deserved for the times that it is not cake.
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Cake? Please explain. Big money on times it is not cake? Do you mean emergency situations/decision making? Please elaborate.
 
Ralgha said:
Most people could probably do this job just as well as we do. They lack the motivation, money, time, opprotunity, etc.

I had a nice long reply all written up, then my browser decided to crash, so I'll summarize in two sentances.

By and large, the job is cake. The big money is deserved for the times that it is not cake.
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You haven't upgraded yet...we'll check back with you in a few years.
 
I don't believe we will say that day come back again, UNLESS people stop paying 80K for flight training to work off a salary of something like 16K a year. Mesa Pilot Development anyone? The airlines know that there are people out there that will capture the allure of flying a big shiny RJ for sh$t wages just cause it looks cool. So in essence, they will continue to set the standards low! Look at the pilots flying at Go-Jets. They undercut their fellow TSA bretheren just to fly a shiny new CRJ-700 for crap wages! Now look at their status in the industry. These people will have trouble finding jobs in the future.

I think the industry as a whole needs to stand up to these companies. We need to lose the image that flying a jet is cool. We will all get their someday. But for now, don't take crap wages like that cause you are just taking everyone else down with you in the end....end of rant
 
"don't take crap wages like that cause you are just taking everyone else down with you in the end"

And don't pay to rent a F/O job at Gulfstream.
 
Another thing to consider if you think pilots are like truck/bus drivers is that the value of the asset. What's a truck/bus worth? 200K? What's a 767 worth? 200 million?

If a truck/bus is well operated to save 5% on fuel cost that day, how much do you suppose that is? How much to suppose that is on a 767?

Airline pilots operate multi million dollar assets in a fluid, dynamic, enviornment with hundreds of lives on the line. That the career is taking pay hits has more to do with airlines losing money, bankruptcies, 9-11, and fuel costs. Not so much cause it's easy to be a pilot these days so we don't deserve the high pay.

You think Fedex or UPS pilots will be taking a pay cuts? These companies are making millions every quarter in pure profits largely because of their air operations. The money is there to support the high pay and the unions demand it. Hopefully, someday, we'll once again be able to be say about the pax airline business.
 
DE727UPS said:
Airline pilots operate multi million dollar assets in a fluid, dynamic, enviornment with hundreds of lives on the line. That the career is taking pay hits has more to do with airlines losing money, bankruptcies, 9-11, and fuel costs. Not so much cause it's easy to be a pilot these days so we don't deserve the high pay.

These companies are making millions every quarter in pure profits largely because of their air operations. The money is there to support the high pay and the unions demand it.
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The high pay and benefits that airline pilots achieved was never about "deserving" it. It was due to ALPA controlling the pilot supply while all the ALPA carriers were completely protected from competition. And while they weren't making much money, the legacy airlines were solvent enough to pay the salaries.

The cargo carriers have pretty much the same dynamic now. The huge infrastructure requirements to be a national package carrier precludes new competition. And the cargo operators are making money so the unions can reasonably make demands.

It's hard to see circumstances that bring ALPA or any other pilot unions the kind of power they had when the pay standards were set in the passenger biz.
 
flyTotheSky said:
I don't believe we will say that day come back again, UNLESS people stop paying 80K for flight training to work off a salary of something like 16K a year. Mesa Pilot Development anyone? The airlines know that there are people out there that will capture the allure of flying a big shiny RJ for sh$t wages just cause it looks cool. So in essence, they will continue to set the standards low! Look at the pilots flying at Go-Jets. They undercut their fellow TSA bretheren just to fly a shiny new CRJ-700 for crap wages! Now look at their status in the industry. These people will have trouble finding jobs in the future.

I think the industry as a whole needs to stand up to these companies. We need to lose the image that flying a jet is cool. We will all get their someday. But for now, don't take crap wages like that cause you are just taking everyone else down with you in the end....end of rant
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Logic would have it that the pilot factory and direct track employment programs have proliferated over the past 5 years due to the fact that the regionals matured like a growing cumulus and the majors provided the carrot of a multimillion dollar career.

Now that the regionals have peaked and the majors no longer provide the golden career, logic would again have it that the supply chain would tighten as career entrants will be unwilling to embark on such an unstable industry...let alone pay $100k to pursue it. As much as I love flying...if I was 18 years old now and spending money on school...I would probably now be a pediatrician or a high school principal.

As the regionals slow hiring...this scenario may just start to occur over the next 5 years. I predict very few will find a regional job as easily as those have over the last 5 years. While the industry suffered over the last 5 years...an abberation occurred for the pilots...the regionals hired heavily...seemingly making the prospects for the industry rosier...therefore driving more and more people to enter the career field.

Now that jobs may be harder to get for ten years or so...(then hiring will pick up again)...the frustration found for the sub 1500 hour pilot will advance (or any hour pilot for that matter...if there are no jobs...you could have 10,000 hours and it wouldn't mean anything)...trickling down to high school students looking at career choices.

When the academies can no longer place numerous students at airlines...the supply chain may tighten.
 
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