will it change?

Vin's name isnt really Vin Disel (sp?) did you know that? That is his cool, tough name. I think its Francis or something.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Hey, just quoting my boy Vin Diesel. Do you see a headset on him in my avatar? No, you see a shotgun.

I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Doesn't look like a shotgun to me. Of course, I don't know much about guns. Looks like either a submachine gun or an assault rifle. Note: all my gun knowledge comes from counterstrike :)
 
flyover said:
Except this makes no sense based on what has actually happened. Nobody is making tons of cash, instead the legacies have lost massive amounts of money. Golden parachutes not withstanding, the upper management would have made lots more by simply running profitable companies. And the current management that replaced them are making much less than their predecessors.

So where's the "winning"? Where are the "tons of cash"? The legacies had no choice but to lower their below wing labor costs. And the ALPA wasn't opposed to them contracting these jobs out because they knew that only profitable airlines can pay high cockpit wages. But the airlines ended up insolvent and bankrupt anyway.

No profits = no airlines = no pilot jobs at any wage.
Click to expand...

The upper tier has nothing to do with airlines. It has to do with EXECUTIVES, as I mentioned in my post. Are the "new" ones getting paid less? Sure, because the BK judges will never allow someone new to make the same money. Are they getting raises? Yeup, at least they're trying. DAL wanted the BK judge to approve bigger salaries for management to that they could keep them. UA wanted to reward its management team with stock options that the employees would not get. NWA wants to park DC-9s and replace them with RJs flown by newbies at regional pay, run by the same management team which will get a productivity bonus and increased profit sharing because the bottom line will look better.

The fact is that we're not going to see the "old" wages return anytime soon. Where's the growth at UAL? RJs. Where's the growth at NWA? RJs. Where's the growth been at CAL? RJs. Where's the growth at US? RJs. Until we all demand NB wages to fly the E190, this profession will continue to slide.

ALPA has been opposed to the outsourcing of jobs. I don't think anyone at DAL-ALPA, CAL-ALPA, U-ALPA, NWA-ALPA, or any other ALPA is glad to see mainline jobs being replaced by regionals.
 
buffalopilot said:
To all you guys who have been around for awhile,

Looking at the decrease in pay lately, do you think it will ever go back?

Has it ever gone this low before and recovered?
Click to expand...

No - the good times are gone. The days of being paid $250,000 a year and working 6 days a month are gone (and don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I know the captain that retired on that schedule).

Pay will increase, at some point supply and demand WILL kick in and there will be less supply of pilots and a continuing demand for the skills (because I don't see Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier etc. stopping building planes). Airline pilot is going to be an average, lower middle class salary with better than average days off, but worse than average nights away from home.

I know we all think we're heros for guiding these magnificent beasts through the angry skys, but the fact of the matter is it's a driving job, maybe more than a truck or bus driving job, but a driving job none the less, and for whatever reason it's been proven that there's a LOT of peope who can be taught how to do it so the supply is never going to become a problem.

If you want to be an airline pilot for the pay or the quality of life, think again - neither of those is coming back the way it once was.
 
Bog said:
Every mainline guy / gal with whom I speak guesses it'll take another 40+ years to get the payrates back. I'll guess at least 20. Management has learned the "contract it out" game very well. They know what it takes to win, and could care less about employees.
Click to expand...

Do they mean the absolute pay rate or the relative pay rate. Sure, in 40 years I can see airline pilots making the same dollar number they were making say 8 years ago - but that dollar isn't going to be worth what it is now. If they mean relative pay rate - good luck - the airlines have NO reason to EVER pay the kind of pay rates they paid before, and say what you like about airlines management, they've learned what they can pay pilots and they're not going back.
 
Bog said:
ALPA has been opposed to the outsourcing of jobs. I don't think anyone at DAL-ALPA, CAL-ALPA, U-ALPA, NWA-ALPA, or any other ALPA is glad to see mainline jobs being replaced by regionals.
Click to expand...

Not NOW they're not - but they were perfectly happy to let the camel's nose under the door because they thought it protected their excessive pay rates. And maybe it did for longer than it should have - but that chicken is coming home to roost.

I do blame ALPA for a LOT of the regional pilot issues - if ALPA had held strong and kept jet flying at the mainline at a pay rate appropriate to the size thay could at least have controlled the slide to the bottom, perhaps made the bottom a little higher than it is, but they didn't, that's water under the bridge and I think the horse has left the stable (to engage in too many analogies at once). Holding the E190 at USAir and NWA may be working, but it only takes one to break, and they will, and that mess is going down the tubes as well.
 
CFISE: For the first post, yes I do believe they mean relative. Not many people I know of speak of the future and adjust for inflation and such. We're not that bright. :)

For the second one, yes, Big Daddy ALPA spent years looking down their nose at the CRJ1/2 and E135/140/145, and now it's a mess they cannot contain. Damage control has been laughable at best, you are correct.
 
CFIse said:
I know we all think we're heros for guiding these magnificent beasts through the angry skys, but the fact of the matter is it's a driving job, maybe more than a truck or bus driving job, but a driving job none the less, and for whatever reason it's been proven that there's a LOT of peope who can be taught how to do it so the supply is never going to become a problem.

.
Click to expand...

Flying is serious business...and we make it look good. I don't know many who think they are heroes...but the professionalism of tens of thousands of aviation professionals make the system work. Besides the application skills, I'm responsible for several thousands of pages of guidance between regulations, operating procedures, company policies, etc. I'm sorry you feel it's a driving job...but it's really more complicated than that if you are doing the job properly...and I hope most of my colleagues feel the same way.
 
B767Driver said:
Flying is serious business...and we make it look good. I don't know many who think they are heroes...but the professionalism of tens of thousands of aviation professionals make the system work. Besides the application skills, I'm responsible for several thousands of pages of guidance between regulations, operating procedures, company policies, etc. I'm sorry you feel it's a driving job...but it's really more complicated than that if you are doing the job properly...and I hope most of my colleagues feel the same way.
Click to expand...

I'm going to do my best not to generalize or insult here, but I've found that most pilots who classify this career as a "bus driver" or "taxi" job don't take it very seriously. They come to work, do the bare minimum to operate safely from A to B, and go home. They don't work like true professionals to continue to grow in their trade to ensure they are working to their top potential. They just "drive" the bus, they don't really learn how to be a top performer.

Pilots are very different from bus drivers. If you are a professional pilot and consider them one in the same, it is time to look inside yourself and see if you are really putting your full effort into this career.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Pilots are very different from bus drivers. If you are a professional pilot and consider them one in the same, it is time to look inside yourself and see if you are really putting your full effort into this career.
Click to expand...

Well - with all due respect - this is part of the problem the pilot group currently has - we have an excessve regard for our position in life. There are professional bus drivers out there who keep up to date with the regulations controllng their activity, who follow their rest and work rules, who learn how to best operate their equipment etc. Being a driver does not mean unprofessional.

But look how society values pilots? Not much - we used to be sky gods, now many of us are getting paid the same as bus drivers and valued about as much. But you say "we are more skilled" - which may be true, but the enviable Part 121 accident record would tend to prove you can take most people (at least enough people) and teach them to fly a jet - you may not agree with that, but it's being done every day, so it's true.

This is no longer a job done by supermen (if it ever was) and it's never going to be paid as if the job is being done by supermen again. Which is the basis of this thread - will the pilot career ever return to what is was - no!
 
The CURRENT 121 accident record is a fluke, it hasn't happened before and it's only a matter of time until we have another serious accident on U.S. soil.

It's just one of those things. These machines are too complicated to run perfectly all the time. One of them is simply going to fall apart, or somebody is going to do something stupid in one of them and take a lot of people out with them.

Further, where are you in the professional ladder? Flight Instructor? Saving an airplane from students isn't nearly the same job as operating a jet moving at 500 knots and 35,000 feet.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Only if people stop wearing headsets.

Seriously why do you post this stuff once a week?
Click to expand...

seriously, whats with you and headsets? If its a joke its not that funny.
 
I ask questions because I have a passion for this career and I hate to see it go down the tubes. I want the opinion of the experienced pilots, which is why i ask. I dont have a h --- on to fly planes if there is no future in this career. Educated people ask questions. At least i dont say crap about headsets.
 
I ask questions because I have a passion for this career and I hate to see it go down the tubes. I want the opinion of the experienced pilots, which is why i ask. I dont have a h --- on to fly planes if there is no future in this career. Educated people ask questions. At least i dont say crap about headsets.
 
John Herreshoff said:
The CURRENT 121 accident record is a fluke, it hasn't happened before and it's only a matter of time until we have another serious accident on U.S. soil.
Click to expand...

The second part is right, but I would hardly call the accident record a fluke. I'd say it has to do more with improved technology and safety-minded individuals than anything else. Just like everything, airplanes will get safer with time.
 
What are you talking about? I'm just giving my professional opinion on headets as a commercial rated pilot and a flight instructor. And my best example is that my role model, Vin Diesel, doesn't wear a headset. Neither does Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris would roundhouse kick a headset, espically if it was on somebody's head.

Now THAT is a reason to never wear a headset.

BTW If nobody gets it yet, they should read the rest of my signature...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top