Will I be able to do my spin training in a Great Lakes plane by Waco?

[Inverted]

Sure they do. But when they do, it's actually somewhat difficult to recover. After the normal PARE inputs, the thing was still spinning. It took pulling the yoke back and slamming in full nose-down elevator at least 2-3 more times.

I don't recommend spinning a 172. It sucks. Everything about it sucks.

In comparison, a Super Decathlon is glorious and wonderful and actually does it right.

Then you spun a 172 with an extremely aft CG. I have several hundred hours teaching spins in anything and everything, and I was never impressed at any Cessna for its spinning abilities with regard to giving an accurate depiction. In fact I was never able to get a Cessna through the incipient stage to where I could let go of the yoke and it would continue the spin.

 

[David Sullivan]

Thanks for all of the feedback so far on this folks! I just read the article a day or two ago, and have not really had a chance to run any numbers as far as w&b goes. I'm basically looking to get as large a sample size as possible so that I can make as informed of a decision as possible. I guess all that I can say is keep 'em coming as it will still be some time before I actually am going to be ready to take an airplane into the official "spin cycle!"

 

[pete2800]

Then you spun a 172 with an extremely aft CG. I have several hundred hours teaching spins in anything and everything, and I was never impressed at any Cessna for its spinning abilities with regard to giving an accurate depiction. In fact I was never able to get a Cessna through the incipient stage to where I could let go of the yoke and it would continue the spin.

The CG was actually pretty far forward. The rear seats were removed, and no ballast was added. This was a power-on situation, if that helps.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

The CG was actually pretty far forward. The rear seats were removed, and no ballast was added. This was a power-on situation, if that helps.

So it WAS aggravated. Yeah... Like I said before, don't do that. Form your description, it sounds like you were probably spinning to the left. 172s can do some strange things when aggravated. In the utility category they meet the same requirements for spin certification as airplane certified to the acrobatic category. As thorough as aggravated spin modes within CG limitations are tested, there is no requirement for flat spin recovery. When a 172 begins to flatten out, it my still be far from unrecoverable, provided the CG is with in limits. But the characteristics of the recovery will change. The controls will not be as responsive and much more altitude will be lost simply because the recovery takes longer. This is what startles most pilots who are unfamiliar with aggravated spins. Ultimately, PARE worked. In this situation, like adding power, pilots/CFIs not completely comfortable with spins might panic and forget to take the power out at the start of the recovery. Some even add power! The P & A remove the aggravation to allow the R & E to do their job.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Then you spun a 172 with an extremely aft CG. I have several hundred hours teaching spins in anything and everything, and I was never impressed at any Cessna for its spinning abilities with regard to giving an accurate depiction. In fact I was never able to get a Cessna through the incipient stage to where I could let go of the yoke and it would continue the spin.

Here's how you spin and recover in a Cessna.
Pull really hard aft on the yoke. Twist really hard to the left on the yoke. Push really, really hard to the right on the rudder.
You might enter a spin.
If you do, the recovery is really simple...
Take your hands off the yoke, put your feet on the floor, and (optional, but cathartic) scream really loud.
About 15-20 seconds later you will be flying again.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

There's the departure from normal flight into the incipient phase and then there's a fully developed spin. Regardless, both will kill you if you're 500 AGL. It's the initial departure and the incipient phase that commonly get mistaken for a spin. Most instructors are teaching this an actual spin, when in fact it isn't. It takes 2-3 turns to get there. The problem with the 172 is with the forward CG and dihedral. The airplane will usually just transition right into a spiral out of the incipient phase. In-spin aileron will just get it there quicker. Visually, the spin & spiral look the same outside. But with the spiral you're below critical AOA, the wings are flying again, the airspeed is rapidly increasing along with the G forces. If not recovered in time the airframe can easily be overstressed. If you're spinning a 172 you're light, maybe at 1800-1900 lbs. What's Va at that weight? Probably somewhere around 95kts. It won't take long to get there. That's why the 172 is such a piss poor spin trainer. That, and when you aggravate it, it's spin characterietics can go from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde.

The 150/152s are a totally different deal...

 

[pete2800]

So it WAS aggravated. Yeah... Like I said before, don't do that. Form your description, it sounds like you were probably spinning to the left. 172s can do some strange things when aggravated. In the utility category they meet the same requirements for spin certification as airplane certified to the acrobatic category. As thorough as aggravated spin modes within CG limitations are tested, there is no requirement for flat spin recovery. When a 172 begins to flatten out, it my still be far from unrecoverable, provided the CG is with in limits. But the characteristics of the recovery will change. The controls will not be as responsive and much more altitude will be lost simply because the recovery takes longer. This is what startles most pilots who are unfamiliar with aggravated spins. Ultimately, PARE worked. In this situation, like adding power, pilots/CFIs not completely comfortable with spins might panic and forget to take the power out at the start of the recovery. Some even add power! The P & A remove the aggravation to allow the R & E to do their job.

I completely agree. What you describe was my experience as well. At the time, I was pretty darn inexperienced. I don't recommend spinning a 172. There's a huge difference between the incipient phase, and what happens 3 turns later.