Will I be able to do my spin training in a Great Lakes plane by Waco?

David Sullivan

David Sullivan

New Member
I just got finished reading a really fascinating article on the new Great Lakes bi-planes that are being produced by Waco in the most recent edition of AOPA Pilot magazine. I had seen the older model a few years back when I was still living in Phoenix, AZ and went to the 2006 Goodyear Balloon and Air Spectacular. That being said, I am currently going through CFI initial training right now, and I am in need of finding an airplane that is rated for spins, and can accommodate an individual that is 6'5" and is around 230 lbs, which is what I am. Would I be able to fit into this plane, and would there be any potential weight and balance issues involved since obviously I would need to have an instructor along? Thanks!
 
z987k said:
You should fit in a 172. Should be a lot cheaper than renting a Waco.
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I know that I can fit into a C172 because I've flown them before. I honestly was unaware of any of them being rated in the utility category. All of the ones that I've seen and flown are normal category 172's. It would be great news if I can find a 172 that's not far from my hometown and do my spins in that. I know that a 152 is going to be the ultimate sardine can for me. Thanks for the info!
 
David Sullivan said:
I just got finished reading a really fascinating article on the new Great Lakes bi-planes that are being produced by Waco in the most recent edition of AOPA Pilot magazine. I had seen the older model a few years back when I was still living in Phoenix, AZ and went to the 2006 Goodyear Balloon and Air Spectacular. That being said, I am currently going through CFI initial training right now, and I am in need of finding an airplane that is rated for spins, and can accommodate an individual that is 6'5" and is around 230 lbs, which is what I am. Would I be able to fit into this plane, and would there be any potential weight and balance issues involved since obviously I would need to have an instructor along? Thanks!
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GLs are wonderful. IMO, there is little better than an open cockpit biplane. You would likely be sitting in the front hole which you might find a bit tight with your height. W/B should likely be no issue.
Cheaper, almost as fun, and infinitely better than a Cessna would be a Citabria or Decathlon. Depending on where you are located, these planes should be reasonably easy to find (way easier to find than a GL). Unless you've done your training in TWs and know the instructor, you likely won't be logging take offs or landings if you elect to go in the TWs. But they sure are fun. Find someone with a Super D or a Citabria to take you up a few times and do some spins before you do your "spin training". It will make your official spin training all the more enjoyable and efficacious.
 
David Sullivan said:
I know that I can fit into a C172 because I've flown them before. I honestly was unaware of any of them being rated in the utility category. All of the ones that I've seen and flown are normal category 172's. It would be great news if I can find a 172 that's not far from my hometown and do my spins in that. I know that a 152 is going to be the ultimate sardine can for me. Thanks for the info!
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It's been a long time since I've flown a 172, but you can spin them. Maybe the new ones aren't..... The M and N models are ok. I've spun those. It's the most docile and boring spin ever though.
 
At your size, the problem might be too far forward of a CG. Have you run a W&B for these airplanes yet?
 
z987k said:
It's been a long time since I've flown a 172, but you can spin them. Maybe the new ones aren't..... The M and N models are ok. I've spun those. It's the most docile and boring spin ever though.
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I think in the newer 172 you can't really have a combination of weights and CG that will keep the plane in the Utility Category. Especially the recent ones with all that G1000 stuff in the back, they are probably impossible to keep into the original 172 airframe utility limits.
 
I've spun a newer 172 but I wouldn't recommend it... The black magic mounted in the back didn't take kindly to it. I'd recommend an R model or earlier 172 for spins. And a 172 will spin just fine in the utility category. Trust me on that one. You and your instructor should be able to take off with a hour of fuel and get up to 4500ft to do some spins. Go up to 6500 if you want to try holding the spin in there for more than a couple turns. I've done 6 turns in a 172 and that was difficult to coax it into.
 
I used an M model. Easy Spin both in and out. Actually had to work pretty hard to get it in, unlike the 152 or Traumahawk......
 
chrisreedrules said:
I've spun a newer 172 but I wouldn't recommend it... The black magic mounted in the back didn't take kindly to it. I'd recommend an R model or earlier 172 for spins. And a 172 will spin just fine in the utility category. Trust me on that one. You and your instructor should be able to take off with a hour of fuel and get up to 4500ft to do some spins. Go up to 6500 if you want to try holding the spin in there for more than a couple turns. I've done 6 turns in a 172 and that was difficult to coax it into.
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I did a bush flying course in a C206 G1000, they usually do it in an C185, I had to demonstrate canyon turns (90+ deg steep turns), we lost one of the AHRS for good.
 
I think it's sad that you're going through CFI training without haning done spins during your PPL training. Spins were disorienting (but fun) at first, and I'm glad it was part of the curriculum where I did my PPL.
 
Go to a flight school that specializes in spin training. It's worth every penny.

At 6'5" 230? You'll have a tough time fitting in the Great Lakes. In the front hole there is very little legroom & things can get tight with the heel brakes. With a seatpack 'chute on, the windscreen will probably only come to up to your nose. In the back seat, your face will be right up in the downwash from the top wing. I'm 6'1", 200 and getting in and out gracefully, with out breaking stuff was a challenge. You could make it work in a Super Decathlon, a Stearman would be ideal.

For a guy your size, you're going to have a tough time getting an actual spin to develop in a 172. You'll have to find a small CFI and go up with about 1.5 worth of fuel. With the CG any more forward it'll just spiral out after the first rotation. Really not an affective spin lesson. If the "school" talks about adding ballast to the back or using power to aggravate it into a spin, go somewhere else. There are times when adding power is okay. But if they can't explain to you why or how the application of power effects the spin dynamic, then they shouldn't be teaching spins. Adding ballast contrary to the airplane's operating limitations is never ok.

If you're looking for a cheaper option, look at a C150 or 152. They spin great, and you should still should be able to fit in one.
 
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Inverted said:
You will have no problem in a Great Lakes. I taught in one for over a year. Don't do it in a 172, they don't actually spin.
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Sure they do. But when they do, it's actually somewhat difficult to recover. After the normal PARE inputs, the thing was still spinning. It took pulling the yoke back and slamming in full nose-down elevator at least 2-3 more times.

I don't recommend spinning a 172. It sucks. Everything about it sucks.

In comparison, a Super Decathlon is glorious and wonderful and actually does it right.
 
I second what the others have said about the Citabria or a super D. They are easy to find, affordable, and wind up great. Get someone to do the spins and throw some acro in for the fun of it.
 
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