Why Scope is Important

[Cptnchia]

To prevent stuff like this. You gotta be careful about the whole, "Holding Company" thing.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/republic-airways-ceo-talks-bombardier-204425567.html

Republic Airways CEO talks Bombardier jet plans

Republic Airways: New Bombardier jet could be part of global alliance flying in US
By Joshua Freed, AP Airlines Writer | Associated Press – Wed, May 23, 2012 4:44 PM EDT

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- The CEO of feeder airline operator Republic Airways said on Wednesday that new Bombardier jets could be flown in the U.S. in a partnership with one of the big airline alliances.
Republic ordered 40 of the new C-Series jets being developed by Montreal-based Bombardier, which is aiming to begin delivering them to other customers by the end of next year.
Republic's main business is flying smaller jets for big airlines such as Delta and United. But the new Bombardier plane has 100 to 149 seats, a size typically flown by the major airlines themselves, not by feeder carriers.
Pilot contracts at all the major airlines bar partnerships with feeder carriers flying planes that big. Republic CEO Bryan Bedford was asked at a regional airline convention on Wednesday what his airline plans to do with those jets.
One possibility is that "it could fit into a global alliance as (a low-cost carrier) component to a broader North American strategy for a SkyTeam or Star or oneworld," Bedford said in an interview.
He declined to talk in detail about Republic's plans for the jet, which is supposed to begin arriving in late 2015. His comments appeared to suggest that Republic might operate those planes in partnership with one of the big three airline alliances. SkyTeam is anchored in the U.S. by Delta, the Star Alliance has United Airlines and US Airways, and oneworld has American.
"I still think that what we're going to see is a worldview where a low-cost carrier can participate in domestic alliances in 2015, and that there'll be a need for that product here," he said.
Republic also owns Denver-based Frontier Airlines, which is it trying to sell or spin off. Bedford said the C-Series order will stay with Republic, though, and not go with Frontier. Barclays will begin marketing Frontier to potential investors around mid-July, Bedford said.
Shares of Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings Inc. rose 24 cents, or 5 percent, to close at $5.08.

 

[bike21]

Bedford is getting desperate.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Scope recapture is priceless.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Placing an order for a plane that you don't really have concrete plans for seems....dumb.

 

[bronco21016]

Placing an order for a plane that you don't really have concrete plans for seems....dumb.

And I thought Trenary didn't know what he was doing at 9E. Holy crap. This is the kinda crap that scared me away from looking into Republic further.

 

[jtrain609]

This could just be a move to get in line for a jet that Bedford believes will be lucrative. If all the orders and options for these things are bought up before mainline companies can get in line for a 100 seat jet, then Bedford could sell them for cost plus a few percent, resulting in the order being more of an investment than something he plans to operate.

As an example, look at Delta making moves for every 717/MD-90 they can get their hands on. United and American are likely going to need a similar gauge aircraft. American HAD this in the F-100, and I'm not sure what United has had in this size range in a long time. Needless to say, though, it's a size category that's coming back.

To compound this, consider that Bedford has been a better financial manager than he has been an airline manager, and this could without a doubt be moved as a financial investment and not an airline investment.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

I just posted this in the delta thread but here again are my thoughts on scope. Git 'Er DOne.

Here is my take on this while issue. And this has less to do with Delta than it does with all of the pilot across the USA. Scope is the biggest issue at hand across the board. As we speak, ALPA has the opportunity to not only help the pilots at Majors attain a better QOL and force their companies to grow, but to also end the far less than adequate conditions that most of the regional pilot in the country have to deal with, especially F/O's. The once CAL pilot group is the only group who's contract still holds their company to jets with 50 seats or less, right now in negotiation with the new United they are fighting tooth and nail to keep that. If you look at CAL they have some of the worst work rules in the industry, even worse than lets say Express Jet, but those pilots are fighting for their current scope first and foremost. I know that Delta pilots lost a lot in 2001 but you still have more than the CAL guys.

If ALPA as a whole can bring scope back to 50 seaters, it tightens a rope around Mainline managements necks. With the price of Jet A still on the rise a jet with less than 50 seats is not profitable anymore, even at the low wages you pay the guys making them fly. If the mainline pilots pass on somethings, yes even pay raises right now, to hold their carriers to this it will benefit everyone.

The reasons why are pretty simple. Majors may be able to but won't want to finance deals with regional for them to fly their 50 seaters when no one can make a profit on them unless they are props burning much less gas. To get around this the majors are going to have to put the 76, 90 or 100 seat aircraft on their own certificates as they begin to park these 50 seat jets. This will do a few things. One the majors will have to hire, now how does this benefit the mainline pilots? Unless you are SUPER senior, lets say in the top 20% of the seniority list you will see an improvement in you QOL, more aircraft mean more pilots, which means more upgrade, senior f/o becoming captains and getting extra pay, junior f/o's move up and get better schedules and those junior captains now move up the captain list into a better QOL with more time off and better schedules.

How does it help the regional pilots, well while I know many of the 10 or 15 year captains at express jet or skywest maybe very happy flying their 50 seater around for 100k a year, that is not the case for most of us. If the mainline carriers are forced either 1). draw down the 50 seat jets because of costs, keeping in mind that with scope they won't be able to replace them with bigger jets, there only option is to replace some of them with props. The senior regional guys still have their QOL and pay but will be on a different type at a smaller airline. The regionals will still be there as a stepping stone for pilots into the majors but won't be nearly as big and we won't have to worry about the getting stuck there. Regional pilots that want to move on can get out of the hell holes that many of us work in and get our "dream jobs" a lot sooner than later. Get this in a 3 to 5 year contract and then start worrying about pay and such. SCOPE IS EVERYTHING, Lets make it happen ALPA.

 

[Maurus]

Something no one is talking about with better scope are the likely furloughs that would occur at the regional level. Delta getting rid of over 100 50-seaters is how many pilots?

Hopefully mainline hiring would help.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Something no one is talking about with better scope are the likely furloughs that would occur at the regional level. Delta getting rid of over 100 50-seaters is how many pilots?

Hopefully mainline hiring would help.

It would help, but I can't imagine the way airlines like XJT, Skywest, CommutAir, and the likes are hiring that it wouldn't just temporarily stop the hiring at regionals. Its not like all of the 50 seaters are going to get parked at once. It is more likely that turboprops will replace the 50 seaters at a certain ratio. At the same time the rest of the flying, and longer flight now being done by RJ's would be replaced by larger aircraft operated by mainline carriers. If there were furloughs I can't imagine there would be many, since everything would happen over a set schedule, and those that may get furloughed would most like be called back quickly.

 

[MikeD]

American HAD this in the F-100, and I'm not sure what United has had in this size range in a long time. Needless to say, though, it's a size category that's coming back.
.

Wouldn't the 737-200 have fit this category with 112-ish seats?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wouldn't the 737-200 have fit this category with 112-ish seats?

Delta's -100s had only 100 seats. Of course, it burned fuel like a mother-.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Delta's -100s had only 100 seats. Of course, it burned fuel like a mother-.

It didnt burn fuel. It converted it into beautiful noise! Same with the -200s.

 

[Rocketman99]

Something no one is talking about with better scope are the likely furloughs that would occur at the regional level. Delta getting rid of over 100 50-seaters is how many pilots?

Hopefully mainline hiring would help.

Highly likely to be true, but you say that as if it's a bad thing. The regionals shrinking or even (gasp) ceasing to exist could only be good for our careers.

Repeat after me:
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.

Good. Cary on.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Highly likely to be true, but you say that as if it's a bad thing. The regionals shrinking or even (gasp) ceasing to exist could only be good for our careers.

Repeat after me:
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.

Good. Cary on.

Glad I am not the only one that thinks this. Guys have to understand this is a chance for all of us to take back our career for the betterment of not only ourselve but future pilots as well. Getting the regionals in check, yes getting the back to prop flying only or small jets, it was HAS to happen.

 

[Maurus]

Highly likely to be true, but you say that as if it's a bad thing. The regionals shrinking or even (gasp) ceasing to exist could only be good for our careers.

Repeat after me:
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.
Working for a regional airline is NOT a career.

Good. Cary on.

If I thought a Regional was a career I would be sitting in an RJ right now. I am not. Personally I will rejoice if I never have to set foot in the front of an RJ. Watching everyone getting screwed recently deters me from going to a regional. Obviously the Majors aren't immune, but they are certainly in a better position after the crap hits the fan. Especially since the government wont let them fail these days. It also helps that they own the flying.

From an overall perspective the shrinking of the regionals will be a good thing, but there will be some bad to go with the good. All I was trying to point out. Everyone goes crazy when the regionals furlough, I don't expect much different in the future.

 

[ERfly]

Delta's -100s had only 100 seats. Of course, it burned fuel like a mother-.

Delta never had 737-100s. The had 737-200s. The only US airline that had them was Continental...and that was because they got them through PeoplExpress. There were only 30 built and most of them were for Lufthansa. Peoples bought those.

Now, if you're referring to the 727-100, I do believe that Delta had those. They also had the DC-9 (pre-Northwest) that was around 100 seats.

 

[MikeD]

Delta never had 737-100s. The had 737-200s. The only US airline that had them was Continental...and that was because they got them through PeoplExpress. There were only 30 built and most of them were for Lufthansa. Peoples bought those.

America West had a few 737-100s, in fact the last one in scheduled operation.

 

[ERfly]

America West had a few 737-100s.

That's right, I forgot they had them.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yeah, I meant -200s. Delta had 737-200s up until about 2006 or so, and they were equipped with 100 seats.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yeah, I meant -200s. Delta had 737-200s up until about 2006 or so, and they were equipped with 100 seats.

What a noisy beast it was too. (credit to the people in Toulouse. They know how to build a quiet cabin at least...)

Although the (very early, radioactive green paint) Shady Eighty I rode on yesterday was probably the loudest airliner I've ridden on in recent memory including the Brasilia.