Why EMAS is good
- Thread starter BobDDuck
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Like JFK, LGA, PHX, TUS, LAX, SNA, EWR, SFO, need I go on?
What's bad if you go off the end in TUS?
OHHHMMMAAAA GAAAAWWWDDD!!! We hit a cactus!
The reason he mentions that it is bad if you go off the end of 23 in CRW is that it is a 400 foot drop into a gully with, ironically enough, a cemetery in it.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Not sure how much I like that idea...Engine fails at 90 knots, are they continuing? That could end up much worse than an overrun.
Are the numbers based on rolling starts, or static run-ups? Even the 4-5 seconds of pushing the thrust levers up on the roll can chew up a lot of real estate...
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
At Dough and I's carrier... to expand upon what he said:
Below 80 knots you can abort for most anything that you find concerning. Above 80 knots up to V1, there are only the "4 horsemen:" Fire, Engine Failure, Fear (the aircraft becomes unflyable/total loss of control), or Windshear.
After V1, only the "fear" item is applicable- and that is if you know the aircraft will not be able to get in the air and you're going to be killing everyone by putting it there. In this case, you're also probably going to lose some people by aborting as well.
As far as the calling V1 lower than V1, I would STRONGLY suggest against that. LIke has already been brought up. If you continue after blowing an engine at 90 knots and actual V1 is 115 or 120... there's a very decent change you may be dragging your wheels and other worse parts off the aircraft on the ground beyond the runway.
We always call V1 at V1. No exceptions. The CA will typically remove their hands from the thrust levers around 3 knots prior to V1 as you would be unable to recognize and appropriately make a decision during that time prior to V1. Remember, V1 is the last chance to recognize and take action.... not just notice something. Action has to be initiated prior to V1 for you to be protected.
Below 80 knots you can abort for most anything that you find concerning. Above 80 knots up to V1, there are only the "4 horsemen:" Fire, Engine Failure, Fear (the aircraft becomes unflyable/total loss of control), or Windshear.
After V1, only the "fear" item is applicable- and that is if you know the aircraft will not be able to get in the air and you're going to be killing everyone by putting it there. In this case, you're also probably going to lose some people by aborting as well.
As far as the calling V1 lower than V1, I would STRONGLY suggest against that. LIke has already been brought up. If you continue after blowing an engine at 90 knots and actual V1 is 115 or 120... there's a very decent change you may be dragging your wheels and other worse parts off the aircraft on the ground beyond the runway.
We always call V1 at V1. No exceptions. The CA will typically remove their hands from the thrust levers around 3 knots prior to V1 as you would be unable to recognize and appropriately make a decision during that time prior to V1. Remember, V1 is the last chance to recognize and take action.... not just notice something. Action has to be initiated prior to V1 for you to be protected.
Another note to mention about calling V1 before you need to is that often, you can safely abort up to and at V1. On a dry runway that is 10,000ft long, an abort at V1 is most likely going to be a completely safe non-event (as far as stopping goes). There isn't anything inherently bad or scary about aborting at V1-1kt, it just has to be appropriate for the situation.
The decision to continue when below V1 needs to be taken on an individual flight by flight and problem by problem basis, not be made a manner of habit or technique. Fly standard every time and brief non-standard items as you come upon them.
The decision to continue when below V1 needs to be taken on an individual flight by flight and problem by problem basis, not be made a manner of habit or technique. Fly standard every time and brief non-standard items as you come upon them.
It probably depends on the aircraft. Aborting at V1-a knot on a large jet is certainly going to blow a lot of fuse plugs and probably start a brake fire.
I had a V1 of about 143 knots and aborted (well, >>>I<<< didn't abort, the captain did) about 130 knots. Blew a tire, fodded an engine, left crap all over the runway and luckily didn't end up on the news in SLC during the olympics. Looked down at the brake temp on the tow back to the gate and said, "ooooooh, SPICAAAAAAAY!"
I had a V1 of about 143 knots and aborted (well, >>>I<<< didn't abort, the captain did) about 130 knots. Blew a tire, fodded an engine, left crap all over the runway and luckily didn't end up on the news in SLC during the olympics. Looked down at the brake temp on the tow back to the gate and said, "ooooooh, SPICAAAAAAAY!
"
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
If it was a flaps 8 takeoff, impossible to tell from that angle.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I refused to depart 8 and 15/33. No time savings anyway.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
It can't be TOO high. It's designed to crush so it envelopes the aircraft, right?
Off of 11L, definitely. 29R.....so-so. 3/21......it could get sporty.....that is if the boundary fence doesn't catch you
A number of years back......'78 IIRC......a Continental 727 snagged the departure end power lines on takeoff from 21.
Minuteman
I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE LIGHTING
AC-150/5220-22A has the note:
"Note that current EMAS models are not as accurate for aircraft with a maximum take-off weight less than 25,000 pounds."
There's also this geeky vidya:
[YT]45IcXrqRjEY[/YT]
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
You guys use flaps 8 or 20 on takeoff? I know with flaps 8, V1=Vr. Flaps 20, there's normally a couple of knots difference for us.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
We use either 8 or 20. It tends to default to 8 when it can, but places like Charlie West and other short runways are normally 20. On the hard card there is no split between V1 and Vr at either 8 or 20 unless other additives (like density altitude) come in to play. On the east coast that's pretty rare though. The ACARS data will split V1 and Vr for both flaps 8 and 20 depending on what ever factors it is using.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I guess what you guys get on ACARS for V1 and Vr are what's on our speed cards. We don't get V1 or Vr with ACARS data, just flex settings, full power thrust settings, climb thrust settings and XTOG.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Huh... We get V1, V2 and Vr as well as a flex and flap setting. It also gives us a ZFW to use. We can get landing data now as well which gives us Vref, V2 and Vt for a go around. We are still having some issues with Aerodata as far as the runway contamination selections and what they actually mean.
We also get an ECON cruise setting based on a cost indexing number. The problem is the fuel burn generated by the system doesn't really match reality a lot of the time and our release fuel is based on the econ cruise. It's gotten better since implementation, but I've diverted twice because we weren't going to have enough gas to get to our destination.
We also get an ECON cruise setting based on a cost indexing number. The problem is the fuel burn generated by the system doesn't really match reality a lot of the time and our release fuel is based on the econ cruise. It's gotten better since implementation, but I've diverted twice because we weren't going to have enough gas to get to our destination.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Worldflight and the speed cards give us most of that from the start. The MAJOR complaint I've heard from guy that go from the -200 to the -900 is they hate the LIDO releases b/c of the lack of info. The fuel burn on the worldflight releases are SCARY accurate. Guys slam them all the time, but if you fly the route as planned at the speeds and altitude planned, you'll land within about 100 lbs of your EFOA. We get the ZFW straight outta the FMS perf init page. All our speeds (landing and takeoff) are based off the speed cards rounded up to the next thousands. Example: actual weight is 48,430, you use the 49,000 speed card. Flap settings and the performance numbers associated with them are on the release. Flex is either via ACARS or on a closeout report we get just prior to closing the door. Really, the only thing we need to get via ACARS (or radio if ACARS is busted) is confirmation of the load data and the trim setting.
For contaminated runways, we've got "equivalency" keys for takeoff data. For landing, we have to do it the old fashioned way: a chart.
From what I hear, we're not getting Aerodata since it seems Delta has decided Worldflight is gonna stick around. We'll be getting some sort of hybrid system that has the Worldflight releases but a W&B program that doesn't have us sitting around waiting on numbers.
Those of ya just learning all this, here's a shining example of how two airlines can operate the exact same airplane in TOTALLY different ways.
For contaminated runways, we've got "equivalency" keys for takeoff data. For landing, we have to do it the old fashioned way: a chart.
From what I hear, we're not getting Aerodata since it seems Delta has decided Worldflight is gonna stick around. We'll be getting some sort of hybrid system that has the Worldflight releases but a W&B program that doesn't have us sitting around waiting on numbers.
Those of ya just learning all this, here's a shining example of how two airlines can operate the exact same airplane in TOTALLY different ways.