Why aren't more women airline pilots?

If I go to a comedy show, it's assumption of the risk, if I go to work I should not need to be subjected to the same sort of adolescent "humor". If I don't like what Larry the Cable guy says I can flip the channel, if I don't like what my co-workers say and it makes me uncomfortable I only have a couple of options. If I don't like what the immature boys on JC say, I just don't come here to read their juvenile posts.

KLB if you were sitting at a table in a restaurant next to those guys, and didn't know them would it still be appropriate? Even if you personally were not disturbed by those remarks, could you see where others might feel insulted?

Here at JC we have a problem with retaining women, we do have several women here who roll their eyes and say, oh they're just guys, but others just don't want to read it and leave. I think that's a problem...but I am apparently in the vocal minority.
cencal83406 said:
Instead of skirting around the issue (classic liberal response ;)), why not hit it head on. I know the answer. If the joke has appeared on any American comedy show, of any sort, it's inappropriate. That's not just jokes about women either... take for example "Larry the Cable Guy" and his incessant use of jokes involving the word retard.
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as far as liberal vs. conservative that was a weak attempt at trying to politicize this discussion, I think it's more inclusive vs. exclusive...more mature vs. childish...more respectful vs. disrespectful.
 
cencal83406 said:
"Flight attendants say they also have a problem with being repeatedly referred to as "the team " - not flight attendants or cabin crew members - in the video. "We feel it's demeaning to be called "the team", one said."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...gers-flight-crew/story-e6freuy9-1226024591019

in regards to a safety video hosted by John Travolta...

so really, anything can be offensive to anyone...
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That is ridiculous... I cant stand a personality that sensationalizes or looks for something inappropriate in EVERYTHING.

That said, there have been a lot of inappropriate conversations that have happened in front of women in my employment experience... a lot of men have no filter, and one day it will cost them.
 
Bumblebee said:
as far as liberal vs. conservative that was a weak attempt at trying to politicize this discussion, I think it's more inclusive vs. exclusive...more mature vs. childish...more respectful vs. disrespectful.
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The best solution is just not to joke at work... no one can exactly know what someone else is offended by, until they tell the joke and get a negative response or a positive one. Who starts the joking atmosphere in the flight deck anyway? I won't say anything until someone else does, but how do they know that initiating "your momma" jokes won't just shut me off.
 
cencal83406 said:
The best solution is just not to joke at work... no one can exactly know what someone else is offended by, until they tell the joke and get a negative response or a positive one. Who starts the joking atmosphere in the flight deck anyway? I won't say anything until someone else does, but how do they know that initiating "your momma" jokes won't just shut me off.
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Let's not go from one extreme to another. It is important to know your audience....I joke constantly, (and did at the airline as well) I don't tell jokes but we cut up all the time. If I am in a private setting, I can make humor that fits the group. If I were on a podium in front of a room full of people (such as JC) I am much more thoughtful in the way I joke.
 
Bumblebee said:
KLB if you were sitting at a table in a restaurant next to those guys, and didn't know them would it still be appropriate? Even if you personally were not disturbed by those remarks, could you see where others might feel insulted?

Here at JC we have a problem with retaining women, we do have several women here who roll their eyes and say, oh they're just guys, but others just don't want to read it and leave. I think that's a problem...but I am apparently in the vocal minority.
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I know that it would not matter if you were friends or not. They are so sensitive about race that something harmless could get them so riled up that they want to get violent. Its really ridiculous, buts that the way they are.

I did not become a member of FI because I was scanning through the post one day and I read something to the effect of "women belong in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant...not in a cockpit." I chose JC over other website because I know comments like that would not be tolerated over here. You moderators do to good of a job for that. Of course I see a lot of borderline stuff, but nothing to the effect of running the women off. There aren't a huge amount of blacks on here, but it's not because you guys go around throwing racist jokes though.

Some people are more sensitive to others when it comes to what they consider an insult.

I do have one female friend....my best friend actually who won't step foot on here or any other aviation board because she assumes that she will not be accepted well. I do tell her that she's ASSuming though.:D

For the most part, JC is a very accepting and welcoming place.
 
cencal83406 said:
The best solution is just not to joke at work... no one can exactly know what someone else is offended by, until they tell the joke and get a negative response or a positive one. Who starts the joking atmosphere in the flight deck anyway? I won't say anything until someone else does, but how do they know that initiating "your momma" jokes won't just shut me off.
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I don't see anything wrong with joking around.

Bumblebee is right, though, in that maturity and awareness go a long way towards avoiding being "that guy". It's not very hard to figure out what societal norms are and trying to stick to them. Don't worry about those stupid extreme examples that people like to bring up - they really don't apply in the real world that we live in. If you do happen to run across someone that is offended by something as silly as some of the examples given here, well, I can assure you that HR understands what is reasonable as well as you do, and they can roll their eyes with the best of them.

Really, it is silly to say that since you can't anticipate what might offend the fringe 0.01% that you can't say anything. It is also silly to say that just because you don't know what might offend that fringe element that you don't know what is reasonable and what has a chance of being offensive. It's not rocket science.

Seriously, just don't make jokes that poke fun at people's characteristics that they cannot readily control. Don't expect people to tell you when you've said something rude, either. Most people will keep their mouths closed and you will never know when you've put a black mark in the column next to your own name. Just like all the women that have come and gone here without saying anything about the sexist remarks and pictures and comments and avatars - they just get fed up with the atmosphere that kind of stuff creates and they go somewhere else. Then we sit around wondering where all the hot chicks are??? Hello???
 
Oh and to answers the OP's question....

The same reasons that there many black airline pilots. We're still advancing from the times of racism and sexism in this country. It's a slow process, but we've made many strides towards equality.
 
KLB said:
Oh and to answers the OP's question....

The same reasons that there many black airline pilots. We're still advancing from the times of racism and sexism in this country. It's a slow process, but we've made many strides towards equality.
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I really don't see there being many barriers for minorities or women now. I think it is mainly self-inflicted. If you really want to join the airlines and have the training and experience I don't think the airlines look down on either. Some may stop during training when they run into attitudes that they feel are intolerable. Part of it is the work environment of being away from home most of the time. That isn't going to change and I don't see a large number of women with young children that would be willing to leave for large amounts of time.
 
amjon said:
I really don't see there being many barriers for minorities or women now. I think it is mainly self-inflicted. If you really want to join the airlines and have the training and experience I don't think the airlines look down on either. Some may stop during training when they run into attitudes that they feel are intolerable. Part of it is the work environment of being away from home most of the time. That isn't going to change and I don't see a large number of women with young children that would be willing to leave for large amounts of time.
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I think you're right in that there isn't and hasn't been institutional barriers for a long time but the interpersonal resistance has taken decades to melt away, and there are still many pockets where you may never know the real reason why you didn't get the job/promotion/good duty but it is because of silent prejudice.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Do you think that the military environment contributes to this?

I'm often forced to wonder if the range of tolerance is different between the military and the civilian world- for either gender. We had two male pilots that specifically come to mind that *never* made PC (Captain, for you civilian types). They were borderline dangerous at the controls and absolutely unable to make a command decision. If our PC had been shot, I'd have been better off pulling his body over the center console, taking his seat, and flying the 'Hawk myself. Why were they still there? The only thing that made flying on their crews tolerable is that they were intentionally never paired with a weak PC. We always got the best in command of the ship to balance them out. Regular FAA exposure seems like it might shake out the serious non-hackers in the civilian world.
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Yeah - this topic is probably for a different thread but you're right. The Army abhors making tough decisions about marginal aviators. I've seen this, continue to see this, and am now in command of things like this. Not fun. You remember your AR-95-1? The convening authority for an FEB is inconveniently many grades above me.

The female military aviators I worked with tended to trend similar- but there were a lot fewer of them, and I think that maybe people were afraid to wash out the bad ones for fear of being seen as discriminatory. I think it also makes the bell curve seem a lot more extreme. The sample size caused a few female aviators that were horribly bad to make the rest of population sample seem that much better by comparison. Granted, I think that's typical of the Army's mentality as a whole.
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For reasons you mentioned above I don't think the Army is afraid to wash out women because they're women. They are just afraid to get rid of any aviator, period.

Are there quotas in the pilot selection boards? Honestly? I think a lot of people believe there are- and that affects the way they perceive the issue.
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I don't think there are quotas but stats are kept and are briefed, and therefore may be used to pressure boards. I don't really know. In my own little pond here in a State Guard I know they do not use quotas. We have one female pilot in the state that I know of.

From a former ROTC instructor standpoint we encouraged qualified women to try for aviation but not many wanted it. One this year who would've done well in aviation instead chose Civil Affairs in order to further her civilian career. Another was denied by the state guard because of recommendations of the ROTC instructors.
 
I haven't read this entire thread, but add my $0.02: In the first 5 years of my career with my current airline (based in DFW whch is a relatively senior base at my airline), I flew with two female captains in five years. In the last week in my new base (ORD which is relatively junior), I've flown with 3 female captains...which brings me to my point in a round about way:

Perhaps in the past, there weren't many female pilots. However, over my short 5.1 year career, I've seen many female pilots in the terminals. Most of them FO's right now, but that will change with time. Females are becoming an increasing presence on the flight deck.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
"Flight deck" is both suitably nohomo and gender-neutral.
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A "Flight Deck" is on the top of a big grey boat and aircraft land on it.

A "Cockpit" is where the pilot sits to control the aircraft and land it on the big grey boat.

I never refer to my place of work as a "Flight Deck"...

It's a "Cockpit" as far as I'm concerned, and always will be.


Kevin
 
staplegun said:
A "Flight Deck" is on the top of a big grey boat and aircraft land on it.

A "Cockpit" is where the pilot sits to control the aircraft and land it on the big grey boat.

I never refer to my place of work as a "Flight Deck"...

It's a "Cockpit" as far as I'm concerned, and always will be.


Kevin
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Delta probably refers to it as "the Bridge". :D
 
MikeD said:
Delta probably refers to it as "the Bridge". :D
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Unfortunately, we've fallen victim to the "political-correctness" police; that and more Air Force than Navy guys aboard have given rise to the prevalence of calling the cockpit a "flight deck."

I know, I know... it's a trivial distinction, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

I guess in this regard I'm kinda "old school"... but I'll keep calling it a cockpit until specifically told I can't!

JMHO, YMMV.

:whatever:


Kevin
 
I would say it's almost easier for minorities, including women, to be accepted for a pilot position if their qualifications are the exact same as a white male. And sometimes, they are accepted for positions when their qualifications are less than others. Then they get labeled the stigma of 'they got the job because they were a minority' even if they truly had earned the position. This perception will inevitably never change so long as their are affirmative action laws, minority scholarships, and a culture of 'social justice' to equal the playing field.
 
staplegun said:
that and more Air Force than Navy guys aboard have given rise to the prevalence of calling the cockpit a "flight deck."
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Don't paint a broad brush and say that it's the fault of the "Air Force". I've been flying for the USAF for a long time and never once referred to the little room at the front of the airplane where the pilots sit as a "flight deck".

If you wanna blame "heavy dudes" that's fine, but not everyone in Big Blue uses that kind of language. I'd suspect, anyway, that if a portion of the USAF flying community uses this, that they picked it up from the airlines. The airlines is the first place I heard that term, long ago as a pax with Captains giving their "Good afternoon from the flight deck..." announcements.
 
staplegun said:
Unfortunately, we've fallen victim to the "political-correctness" police; that and more Air Force than Navy guys aboard have given rise to the prevalence of calling the cockpit a "flight deck."
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Hacker15e said:
Don't paint a broad brush and say that it's the fault of the "Air Force". I've been flying for the USAF for a long time and never once referred to the little room at the front of the airplane where the pilots sit as a "flight deck".

If you wanna blame "heavy dudes" that's fine, but not everyone in Big Blue uses that kind of language. I'd suspect, anyway, that if a portion of the USAF flying community uses this, that they picked it up from the airlines. The airlines is the first place I heard that term, long ago as a pax with Captains giving their "Good afternoon from the flight deck..." announcements.
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Didn't the airline usage of the term 'flight deck' start back with the Pan Am Clipper era, etc, when they started using the terms "Captain" and "First Officer", etc? Could one say that it was just something that people picked up as a marketing thing that was later decided was more 'PC' as an added bonus?

Personally, I don't care what you call it. Cockpit. Box office. Cooter closet. Flight Deck. But people get all butthurt about it, so I think we oughta just start calling it the "Bridge". That, and First Officers will now be referred to as "Number One", "Set Thrust" will be replaced with "Engage', and all on board coffee will be replaced with Earl Grey Tea.

I mean.. really? I asked my FA the other day if she liked movies about gladiators. Am I going to hell for that?
 
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