Why "1000 hrs Turbine PIC" Is Bad For Pilots

[Firebird2XC]

While I agree with your rant in whole, I do have to ask why you think it's discriminatory. Where does it say anywhere in US Code, or the US Constitution, that you have the right to work at an airline regardless of experience. Companies are allowed to set a minimum standard of experience as long as that experience isn't tied to race, gender, orientation, nationality, etc.

Let's not cloud the issue with "My rights were violated," PC nonsense crap. There is collusion between airlines to drive down employee costs, no doubt about it. In order to overcome this, there needs to be an effort to educate student pilots before they get the taint of management's BS on them. Unfortunately, there is no type of inoculation for SJS being developed.

I'm not saying my "rights were violated". If I did or did not use the term "discriminatory", I didn't mean in the bigoted or criminal sense.

All I'm saying is that the general belief that this bullet on your resume is not all it's cracked up to be. If we dispel the myth and make it clear that "Get Up and Get Out" thinking benefits pilots very little, we're improving pilot ideology at the fundamental levels.

There is no inoculation for SJS, but there is treatment. That's what this is.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Have them fly with me for a 4 day. I'll cure them of SJS in my Saab-o-matic. I'd be willing to lay down odds Seggy can cure SJS on a 3 day. "Beating SJS one FO at a time"

BTW, you would come up with this right before I get my 1000tpic Firebird. Damn you'ss!!!! (broke out the boston accent on that one)

 

[Firebird2XC]

Have them fly with me for a 4 day. I'll cure them of SJS in my Saab-o-matic. I'd be willing to lay down odds Seggy can cure SJS on a 3 day. "Beating SJS one FO at a time"

BTW, you would come up with this right before I get my 1000tpic Firebird. Damn you'ss!!!! (broke out the boston accent on that one)

>shrugs< Jus' sayin'. Nothing wrong with having TPIC, just don't kneecap your future getting to it.

... and this is not really a jet specific issue, either. I seem to recall more than one TP flyer advocating "fly here- it sucks something rotten, but hey, 1000 TPIC faster than anywhere else!"

 

[skidz]

How many of you guys here think that this industry can actually be changed and pilots will get paid more? simple economics tells me you either have to have a serious shortage of pilots or a huge expansion of the air travel like the one back in the 50's. In either case I think American airline companies will rather employ someone from the third world to fly their airplanes for 12.50 an hour than pay an american pilot more. And yeah, if need be, they'll change the laws accordingly to allow that. I'm not saying pilots should give up trying to change the system as it is now, but I seriously doubt it could be changed. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion. :bandit:

 

[Firebird2XC]

How many of you guys here think that this industry can actually be changed and pilots will get paid more? simple economics tells me you either have to have a serious shortage of pilots or a huge expansion of the air travel like the one back in the 50's. In either case I think American airline companies will rather employ someone from the third world to fly their airplanes for 12.50 an hour than pay an american pilot more. And yeah, if need be, they'll change the laws accordingly to allow that. I'm not saying pilots should give up trying to change the system as it is now, but I seriously doubt it could be changed. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion. :bandit:

If McCain gets elected, we WILL have foreign pilots flying in the US for that sort of rate, at some degree.

Beyond that, if airline profitability goes up and the industry shrinks, we'll have leverage to strike for better pay eventually.

 

[Cptnchia]

I'm not saying my "rights were violated". If I did or did not use the term "discriminatory", I didn't mean in the bigoted or criminal sense.

I didn't think you were using it in the "normal" sense, but just wanted to make sure.

All I'm saying is that the general belief that this bullet on your resume is not all it's cracked up to be. If we dispel the myth and make it clear that "Get Up and Get Out" thinking benefits pilots very little, we're improving pilot ideology at the fundamental levels.

On this I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[kellwolf]

We're at a low right now, things will pick up again and go even higher. Only to go way down again 10 years from now. This industry has been a roller coaster since the beginning why would it change now? The looming pilot shortage should help though, the last few years has basically worsened the pilot profession. Any lower and it will be the same as driving a city bus. With the exception of colleges, nobody is flight training to be a comm pilot.

I've been hearing about this "looming pilot shortage" for almost 8 years now. Still haven't seen it. Even when airlines were hiring people with a CMEL and a pulse there was no shortage. They just lowered the mins, cranked up the marketing campaign at the pilot mills and viola.

I agree with Matt. I don't think the majors even have a clue or care about the financial aspect. The 1000 TPIC was just a way for SWA to thin the tide of applications. Delta, NWA and CAL never really had that requirement. In fact, I've got apps in at all three of those, and I don't even have 200 TPIC yet....

 

[Polar742]

If McCain gets elected, we WILL have foreign pilots flying in the US for that sort of rate, at some degree.

Beyond that, if airline profitability goes up and the industry shrinks, we'll have leverage to strike for better pay eventually.

Just curious where these foreign pilots will come from.

If you look at all the contract sites, why do all these foreign carriers need qualified pilots from other countries?

You can walk in off the street and be a Captain. CA salaries are at least 10k/mo and some are up over 15k/mo- not great pay, but better than command at some lower tier airlines. And of course there's no union, blah, blah, blah, but we know that.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Just curious where these foreign pilots will come from.

If you look at all the contract sites, why do all these foreign carriers need qualified pilots from other countries?

You can walk in off the street and be a Captain. CA salaries are at least 10k/mo and some are up over 15k/mo- not great pay, but better than command at some lower tier airlines. And of course there's no union, blah, blah, blah, but we know that.

I'm not talking about a large pool of foreign born pilots working for US airlines. I'm talking about route structures flown entirely by foreign airlines emerging in the US. In other words- European airlines flying into NY, then flying to LA before flying back to NY then back to Europe, etc, etc.

 

[Polar742]

I'm not talking about a large pool of foreign born pilots working for US airlines. I'm talking about route structures flown entirely by foreign airlines emerging in the US. In other words- European airlines flying into NY, then flying to LA before flying back to NY then back to Europe, etc, etc.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood what you said then.

Those airlines are STILL paying better than their US counterparts, I'm basing that off the contract Direct Entry Captain rates. Read up on the JAA rest requirements too. Something else we should aspire to....

I don't want it to happen, but foreign controlled airlines vs. foreign pilots are different issues.

 

[kellwolf]

Oh, I guess I misunderstood what you said then.

Those airlines are STILL paying better than their US counterparts, I'm basing that off the contract Direct Entry Captain rates. Read up on the JAA rest requirements too. Something else we should aspire to....

I don't want it to happen, but foreign controlled airlines vs. foreign pilots are different issues.

Yeah, but good luck getting hired at one of the good European ones if you're not a citizen of their home country. Hence the reason cabotage is bad for US pilots. I'd fly for Lufthansa in a hearbeat if I could get EU citizenship. They hand out US citizenship like candy, but not so on the EU side of things.

 

[Baronman]

They hand out US citizenship like candy, but not so on the EU side of things.

Not really.

 

[surreal1221]

So the EU's member states hand out citizenships like the US does?

News to me.

 

[jynxyjoe]

So the EU's member states hand out citizenships like the US does?

News to me.

He might be saying the US doesn't hand out citizenships like candy. In my experience, the friends I have that went through it had nothing but lines after lines of red tape. Perhaps though compared to the EU ours is easier, I don't know.

 

[granlistillo]

So the EU's member states hand out citizenships like the US does?

News to me.

pretty much! Very similar to the US. If you have a "green card" or residency permit and you live there as a legal resident for about 5 years you can apply for citizenship. Getting a green card there is about like here, if you are married to a EU citizen or your job sponsors you then you can get one. Several EU countries will give you citizenship based on a relative, like a grandparent.

Having a dual nationality marriage, I must say that the EU is less of a pain in the butt than the US.

 

[Baronman]

Sorry...I was referring to the US handing out papers like candy. Having through the years come across dozens and dozens of friends, family and the like who've tried to get green-cards or citizenship, it's not easy. I know it's not meant to let everyone in, but the process is prohibitive due to the level of BS one must navigate.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Those airlines are STILL paying better than their US counterparts

Depends on the country. Russian pilots make so little that many of them have to work second jobs outside of aviation to make ends meet. If McCain's idea of cabotage becomes a reality, then the US will become a place where foreign airlines send their own citizens to to become pilots so they can go back to their own countries to fly for their airlines, which will be able to fly point-to-point within our own country. Imagine a Russian LCC able to fly point-to-point within America with their bargain-basement pilot wages. Just send an ab-initio Russian student to an American pilot school where learning to fly is cheap compared to the rest of the world, and then once he's certified, send him back to Russia where he'll work for this new Russian LCC to fly our old routes. This is exactly what McCain thinks is a good idea.

 

[wheelsup]

I don't care if I could fly on a Russian airline for free around the US, I wouldn't step foot onto one of their airplanes. I value my life more than a $200 plane ticket.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I value my life more than a $200 plane ticket.

Most Americans don't.

 

[granlistillo]

Sorry...I was referring to the US handing out papers like candy. Having through the years come across dozens and dozens of friends, family and the like who've tried to get green-cards or citizenship, it's not easy. I know it's not meant to let everyone in, but the process is prohibitive due to the level of BS one must navigate.

The system only screws with those who try to follow the law. If you are illegal then you get all the "rights" in the world.