Who was taught this (crosswind technique)

seagull said:
Military pilots have no trouble with the concept. You have to keep in mind that military approach procedures are different, so the hold for military airports have different entry techniques and requirements. Do you know those? Similarly, how well do you understand ICAO holding procedures?

Bottom line is that as long as they stayed within the airspace, it doesn't matter whether they follow AIM guidelines.
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First, I'm pretty sure that ICAO and FAA holds on the same cardinal direction from the fix require the circuit to be performed in the same location in space. I'll leave it at that.

The military vs civilian argument doesn't hold with me. Maybe at one time it did. But my airline is 90% military...and the 10% civilian pilots I fly with seem to outperform the average of the other. Now the 10% that make it to the seniority list are pretty sharp...so it's probably a skewed sample from the civilian population. For the military guys...they get the recommendation and the gouge...and their squandron buddies get them in the ball game. Basically, it comes down to the individual and much less the background after the learning curves have plateued.

My comments are not to be construed that civilian pilots are better than military. My observations are that the backgrounds of professional pilots with 4000 hours of flying experience would be undectable in a simulator event.

Seagull, you list yourself as serving in leadership roles. Captain, check airman, instructor, various committees, etc. I've witnesses your posts on this board as 'coming down from on high' and belittling those looking for clarification. You seem confrontational first and cooperative second...ensuring that those who have incorrect information pay with punitive jabs. Whenever I fly with a captain that operates with that MO, I can guarantee 2 things will happen. It must be a physical law. 1) He will screw up soon and substantially because he's more into pointing out others deficiencies than monitoring his own performance and 2) after his screw up he typically realizes he's one of us sinners again and becomes a joy to fly with.

I hope your instructional techniques in the airplane are less punitive, and more constructive, than they seem here.
 
tonyw said:
Wow. I just checked out the FBO there. How do they get the 172s they've got to fly on a hot day?:)

I bow to the aviation skills of Tim and SteveC. You guys are making me look like a big synonym for cat!
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I think they just don't go when it gets so hot. Perhaps fly in the mornings and late afternoons when it is cooler.

As for bowing to my aviation skills... I am yet to grow the balls to go to that airport, in fact I don't think my school allows us to take a 172 there, I think we can only use 182s which I have never flown.

Oh yeah, Tony before you do that bow, remember that first approach we flew together? I was lost for about 5 minutes there before you started the approach. I don't think I even saw the airport till we did the approach the 2nd time.
 
tonyw said:
Wow. I just checked out the FBO there. How do they get the 172s they've got to fly on a hot day?:)
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They don't. On a hot day, the density altitude on the ground is higher than the service ceiling of the airplane.

Even on a pleasantly warm day, they will tend not to fly with full tanks. It fun to go up there for a training flight with someone who has flows a 182 a lot and what as they realize that it performs a lot like a 152 at lower elevations.
 
B767Driver said:
I"How much?" you ask. Enough to keep the wings level with the ground.
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I would state that as "Enough to keep the airplane from skipping sideways while minimizing any tendency to bank."
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I would state that as "Enough to keep the airplane from skipping sideways while minimizing any tendency to bank."
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Keep it simple. Ailerons to keep the wings level. If you do this...there will be no skipping down the runway. In a light crosswind, without proper correction, I can keep the airplane from skipping sideways...however, the upwind wing is raised somewhat.

From my perspective...aileron to keep the airplane from skipping sideways, while it is the objective, can lead to improper use of the ailerons. (Not enough aileron.) If we teach the pilot to use ailerons to keep the wings level...the correct amount will be applied and proper directional control will be acheived.
 
Hijack

Hey, Steve, 45G is where I take my students for a little practice for emergency landings and so on...etc

End of Hijack
 
Okay, I want to try for longest+skinniest+worst condition runway :)

http://www.airnav.com/airport/6I4

I always make it a point to take my student pilots there on the last flight before the checkride. I "fail" the engine over it and they usually start going for some field, until I point out that the road-like thing has hangars next to it.
 
B767,

Well, first off, I apologize if I come across that way, and thanks for that feedback. It's not my intent. I think that there are a couple of topics that tend to get my goat, I think because I've seen some real problems over the years in those areas, so I may be replying a bit shorter than I should (perhaps coupled with lack of time to think out the replies sometimes).

My carrier has a similar mix of civilian vs. military, and all I can say is that I have seen more problems with procedural, technical and attitude issues with the small % of civilian background. I'm not sure why that is, it shouldn't be that way. I should add that the vast majority are great, but of that "10%" in the whole group, about half are civilian, which is just way out of proportion. I come from that background, so I am not happy to admit it, but I call it as I see it.

The bottom line on all this has nothing to do with any sort of "competition" between military vs. civilian. I think that I am just pointing out a deficiency that needs to be corrected. There are actually two, you pointed one out, i.e., that weak pilots tend to be "kept on" in civi training schools, on average. It is unfortunate, but I don't see how to fix that as long as schools are in the business of making a profit.

The issue I am trying to address CAN be fixed, but it would take FAA to actually do several things:

1. Actually do some research and work to keep up with the the state of the industry in terms of technical knowledge and;

2. Create some method of having that filter down with some real quality control, right down to the local CFI, etc.;

3. Along with the first point, work to get all the different directorates on the same page, i.e., don't have ATC coming up with things that violate TERPs, etc.

My experience is that most people in FAA are good, sharp people that want to do a good job. However, the organization is disfunctional (as they, themselves are usually quick to point out). As a result, I have been amazed at some of the things that have been said by actual FAA inspectors (let alone DPEs). IOW, those that are supposed to have leadership roles in aviation are spreading things that are just plain wrong too often. Not only does it put bad info out there, but it exposes the poor pilots that listen to them to certificate action or worse! Now, THAT really irritates the heck out of me, and that might be what makes me sound short!

I don't know how to fix it, but I would note that the FAA AEG group seems to have their act together pretty well, and their flight test folks are sharp also. So, I know they can do it, although that whole world is controlled a lot more due to fewer manufacturers or those applying for STCs, etc.

Again, apologies if the tone came across condescending, as that was not my intent.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
If they are not safe or competent don't pass them, you are doing a disservice to the entire industry.
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Who said I passed them?

More of the point I was making is that if the student is not cutting it, you inform them why, and try to correct it. If it still occurs then I have a few options:

1. I let them fly with another CFI to see if another point of view might help things.
2. Try fixing the problem myself.
3. Send them to TRAIN with another CFI.

In the end, its their money, so they can do with it whatever they want. I won't EVER send anyone on a checkride until I think they are qualified.

-ColM
 
seagull said:
B767,

Well, first off, I apologize if I come across that way, and thanks for that feedback. It's not my intent. I think that there are a couple of topics that tend to get my goat, I think because I've seen some real problems over the years in those areas, so I may be replying a bit shorter than I should (perhaps coupled with lack of time to think out the replies sometimes).

My carrier has a similar mix of civilian vs. military, and all I can say is that I have seen more problems with procedural, technical and attitude issues with the small % of civilian background. I'm not sure why that is, it shouldn't be that way. I should add that the vast majority are great, but of that "10%" in the whole group, about half are civilian, which is just way out of proportion. I come from that background, so I am not happy to admit it, but I call it as I see it.

The bottom line on all this has nothing to do with any sort of "competition" between military vs. civilian. I think that I am just pointing out a deficiency that needs to be corrected. There are actually two, you pointed one out, i.e., that weak pilots tend to be "kept on" in civi training schools, on average. It is unfortunate, but I don't see how to fix that as long as schools are in the business of making a profit.

The issue I am trying to address CAN be fixed, but it would take FAA to actually do several things:

1. Actually do some research and work to keep up with the the state of the industry in terms of technical knowledge and;

2. Create some method of having that filter down with some real quality control, right down to the local CFI, etc.;

3. Along with the first point, work to get all the different directorates on the same page, i.e., don't have ATC coming up with things that violate TERPs, etc.

My experience is that most people in FAA are good, sharp people that want to do a good job. However, the organization is disfunctional (as they, themselves are usually quick to point out). As a result, I have been amazed at some of the things that have been said by actual FAA inspectors (let alone DPEs). IOW, those that are supposed to have leadership roles in aviation are spreading things that are just plain wrong too often. Not only does it put bad info out there, but it exposes the poor pilots that listen to them to certificate action or worse! Now, THAT really irritates the heck out of me, and that might be what makes me sound short!

I don't know how to fix it, but I would note that the FAA AEG group seems to have their act together pretty well, and their flight test folks are sharp also. So, I know they can do it, although that whole world is controlled a lot more due to fewer manufacturers or those applying for STCs, etc.

Again, apologies if the tone came across condescending, as that was not my intent.
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That was a classy, intelligent post. One that I would expect from someone of your experience, education and leadership positions. I too, used to lose my cool, on a lot of stuff...but have come to realize that is not the best way to influence and teach.

Thanks.
 
seagull said:
My carrier has a similar mix of civilian vs. military, and all I can say is that I have seen more problems with procedural, technical and attitude issues with the small % of civilian background. I'm not sure why that is, it shouldn't be that way. I should add that the vast majority are great, but of that "10%" in the whole group, about half are civilian, which is just way out of proportion. I come from that background, so I am not happy to admit it, but I call it as I see it.

.
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Interesting. My observations are somewhat opposite.

My observations, and I'm going to generalize, is that when the military pilot separates from the service he feels that the airline is his 'retirement' job and does not give it the effort he did while in the military. The civilian pilot has worked extremely hard to get to the top and realizes the magnitude of the position attained and gives it respect.

Obviously, there are individuals from each sample that fall +/- one standard deviation either side.

I particularly find from former military pilots that they feel their job is confined to the cockpit...and anything that happens aft of the cockpit door is not their problem. This irritates me. The captain should be the cornerstone of customer service...

As I posted before...the good and bad are found from all backgrounds.

It is disheartening to hear your observations of civilian trained pilots not performing well at your airline. I would similarly be inclined to raise the bar as well if my 'peeps' were bringing the quality down.
 
seagull said:
. As a result, I have been amazed at some of the things that have been said by actual FAA inspectors (let alone DPEs). IOW, those that are supposed to have leadership roles in aviation are spreading things that are just plain wrong too often. Not only does it put bad info out there, but it exposes the poor pilots that listen to them to certificate action or worse! Now, THAT really irritates the heck out of me, and that might be what makes me sound short!

.
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I know what you are saying. When I used to give type rides...an FAA inspector would have to observe orals and flight checks. It was more than one occassion I had to privately discuss a few 'technical' issues with the fed who was misinformed on a few things.

I remember having to teach an inspector where the final approach segment began on an ILS approach! His argument was that if you intercepted the glideslope at 8000' and the weather went down...you could continue.
 
Doug Taylor said:
The final approach is at GSIA on GS, right? I can't remember!
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Yes...or at the beginning of the 'feather'. However, if a ball note states that you can intercept the glideslope at a lower altitude...it is the interception of the glideslope at that resultant lower altitude.
 
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