Who was taught this (crosswind technique)

Dugie8 said:
You still touchdown on the upwind main first but the downwind main isn't that far off the ground and NEEDS to come down very quick, because as the struts compress you loose a lot of that clearance on the inboard engine. It is easier than it sounds, the transition from crab to slip is quick enough that the airplane stays tracking the centerline without having to drop the wing more than a couple of degrees before touchdown.
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Again, I say, that sounds an awful lot like a wing low to me. Dip the upwind wing, so as to not side load the gear, then the downwind gear, then the nose gear.

dugie8 said:
Just looked up the exact number (empty airplane) inboard pods on a -7X series (the link is a -73 series) 23.5 inches from the bottom of the pod to the ground.
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Which allows for 5-6 degrees of bank. I looked it up also.
dugie8 said:
Read a book, you might find some interesting info in there, not just JC self proclaimed expert testimony.
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Where do you think I got he information in the first place? Made it up? I have seen plenty of articles and publications say exactly as I stated above. 2 ways to do a crosswind landing. Crab or Wind Low. I never heard of a Kick Out, which apparently is a super secret Heavy pilot technique that isn't in any of the publications I have read. Oh, which by the way sounds just like a wing low landing to me.
 
desertdog71 said:
Again, I say, that sounds an awful lot like a wing low to me. Dip the upwind wing, so as to not side load the gear, then the downwind gear, then the nose gear.

Only in real heavy winds (32 knots is the limit), even then you end up with a bit of a sideways landing, believe it or not, most people drag the outboard engine since it is behind the gear (just barely) and gets put closer to the ground as you pitch up, opposite for the inboard, but when the nose starts coming down, if you still have some bank in there, wammo.



Which allows for 5-6 degrees of bank. I looked it up also.


Where do you think I got he information in the first place? Made it up? I have seen plenty of articles and publications say exactly as I stated above. 2 ways to do a crosswind landing. Crab or Wind Low. I never heard of a Kick Out, which apparently is a super secret Heavy pilot technique that isn't in any of the publications I have read. Oh, which by the way sounds just like a wing low landing to me.
I believe it is mentioned in the turbine pilots handbook (manual?) I don't have mine anymore, ceremonial burning and all.
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I keep forgetting to put my smileys in my posts, not busting your balls, just pointing out there is more than one way to do things, and a lot of things in aviation are not absolute so be flexible.
 
Dugie8 said:
I keep forgetting to put my smileys in my posts, not busting your balls, just pointing out there is more than one way to do things, and a lot of things in aviation are not absolute so be flexible.
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I get what you are saying.

Every plane flies different of course. The same technique for a C172 varies a bit from a PA-28.

The principle remains the same though whether you are full control deflection in a C172 in 15 kt direct or slight deflection in the DC-8 the key is not to sideload and collapse the gear while skipping across the runway. Also knowing the capabilities and limitations of your aircraft is essential.
 
desertdog71 said:
I get what you are saying.

Every plane flies different of course. The same technique for a C172 varies a bit from a PA-28.

The principle remains the same though whether you are full control deflection in a C172 in 15 kt direct or slight deflection in the DC-8 the key is not to sideload and collapse the gear while skipping across the runway. Also knowing the capabilities and limitations of your aircraft is essential.
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That is it exactly! Primary training should not be an absolute, it should be the basics, a general way to fly if you will. More specific training can come from transition, upgrade, etc training.

To the original topic. My first real windy crosswind takeoff in the DC8 was an eye opener. I did the aileron into the wind thing and as Im rolling down the runway Im bleeding it out, come to rotation and as I rotate I let out the ailerons to transition to the crab and we banked so hard to the downwind side I thought the wing had fallen off! Mind set is everyting. Slipping for a while until you are clear of the ground is okay when you got 4 big motors to drive you through the sky!
 
Dugie8 said:
That is it exactly! Primary training should not be an absolute, it should be the basics, a general way to fly if you will. More specific training can come from transition, upgrade, etc training.

To the original topic. My first real windy crosswind takeoff in the DC8 was an eye opener. I did the aileron into the wind thing and as Im rolling down the runway Im bleeding it out, come to rotation and as I rotate I let out the ailerons to transition to the crab and we banked so hard to the downwind side I thought the wing had fallen off! Mind set is everyting. Slipping for a while until you are clear of the ground is okay when you got 4 big motors to drive you through the sky!
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I apologize if my general statement sounded like an absolute at first. However it does remain the same, its time for dude to grab his instructor and practice them. :bandit:
 
A couple of points here.

1. I am well aware that there are some excellent civilian trained pilots, and that there are many good schools, including part 61 schools. However, I am not making my judgement on just these issues. I have seen many, many misconceptions get passed down on the civilian side, and that just doesn't happen in the military training. The problem on the civlian side is you have some dingbat instructor who said some weird thing back in the 40s and it keeps getting passed down. You don't have places like TPS or Pax river to be constantly really analyzing the stuff and then having it get back to the training commands. There is just no similar thing in the civilian world. Consequently, you even have airlines (sometimes (though more rarely) even majors!) that are giving out bad info.

2. The DC-8 can be landed up to it's max demonstrated (and probably beyond) using the standard "side slip" (or "wing low") method of x-wind landings, although there is a persistent myth that the "kick out" method is better. In actual fact, the accident rate for that late correction turns out to be higher for several reasons, and the manufacturer does not recommend transitioning to wing low in the flare, at least not last time I looked in the FCOM. This is another example of item 1, incidentally, as are the myths surrounding "unloading" before touchdown and why it works (or doesn't).

3. Swept wing airplanes require a LOT more crosswind correction inputs on takeoff and landing due to the much higher dihedral effect. Training SHOULD address this BEFORE that first takeoff, it seems to me!
 
Military training has the luxury of letting go anyone that doesn't make the grade. This hopefully leaves only the best and most qualified pilots. (as it should be).

On the civilian side you have to run a business, and that includes keeping your clients flying. Thats not to say I lower my standards when training my students, but there are a few I would like to "washout" because of the lack of effort on their part.

I wish I could've flown for the military (have a lot of friends who do). Its a great career path, top notch training, and awesome co-workers. I just hope that the military pilots transitioning to the civilian side don't bring a "holier than thou" attitude (that goes for GA pilots too) to the cockpit.

K, getting off my soapbox now ;)
-ColM
 
You are correct about military training (and, for the record, I am NOT military trained!), however, my point is not that people are kept on as students when they have less ability (which is another valid reason airlines prefer military), but rather, that misconceptions are passed down from generation to generation in the civilian ranks. Even FAA seems to pass some of these down, and the problem is actually fairly significant at the local level (which is why you should NEVER take the word of the local FSDO on an FAA legal interp, as even FAA gives no credence to them!).
 
Cruise said:
The Teufelhunde explanation listed above is somewhat incorrect. The highly-motivated US Marines did not receive this name in WWII as mentioned. Quite the contrary, it was during the vicious fighting in the Battle of Belleau Wood, France (1918) during WWI where the Devil Dogs earned this reputation/ moniker.

Sorry for the highjack......just needed to set the record straight. Now to return to our regularly scheduled crosswind programming.;)
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Hijack
I should have read the page I sited. I know the history. It was more to humor Lloyd. Here's a better one, not the best though...
Teuflehunde
Please continue on final for 25L, winds 160 @ 14, gusts of 24
 
seagull said:
You are correct about military training (and, for the record, I am NOT military trained!), however, my point is not that people are kept on as students when they have less ability (which is another valid reason airlines prefer military), but rather, that misconceptions are passed down from generation to generation in the civilian ranks. Even FAA seems to pass some of these down, and the problem is actually fairly significant at the local level (which is why you should NEVER take the word of the local FSDO on an FAA legal interp, as even FAA gives no credence to them!).
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Maybe we could ask the military to teach their folks how to hold. I lost count how many times I've been thru training and have to correct the former military instructor how to enter the hold or what a radial is. And while their at it...maybe go out and actually fly in some weather during some of their sorties.
 
Aeronautik said:
Just wondering, as I and a lot of people I've known have been taught this contrary to what the AFH says.

X/Wind takeoff: Aileron into the wind. As you accelerate, slowly remove the aileron and lift-off with ailerons neutral.

I was always taught this throughout my training and actually have always been doing it this way. It was continuously reinforced: "ailerons NEUTRAL on liftoff"...

However after another look at the AFH and some talk with others, it's preferred technique to lift off with the aileron still in place (I was always afraid of a windstrike when taking off with aileron correction).

Some even lift off with full aileron into the wind.

Anyone else taught what I was taught?
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It's unfortunate you had to endure the crap that ensued after you asked your question. I've been involved in a lot of civilian training and around a lot of civilian cfi's...and I've never really seen this issue brought up.

Here's, what I think, is good advice for teaching the crosswind takeoff.

1. Begin the takeoff roll with ailerons fully deflected into the wind. Regardless of wind velocity.

2. As you begin to accelerate down the runway...begin to dial out some of the aileron. "How much?" you ask. Enough to keep the wings level with the ground. If the wings bank into the wind...roll out more aileron. If they bank downwind...add more aileron. The wings should always be level with the runway during the takeoff...and this dictates how much aileron should be used.

3. As you begin to lift off...use enough aileron to once again keep the wings level. This will most probably require the use of some amount of aileron into the wind during liftoff. Not neutral ailerons.

NOW, some more important stuff.

4. As you lift off...allow the nose to weathervane into the wind. After the nose settles down and points into the wind (this happens naturally) bank the airplane as necessary to establish a wind correction angle the maintains the extended runway centerline.

5. Common Error! As you lift off...and the airplane weather vanes into the wind...some pilots will bank opposite of the weathervane. This is not correct...as it establishes a wind correction angle in the wrong direction.

Summary.

How much aileron do you use during a crosswind takeoff? Begin with full deflection and roll out the aileron as you accelerate just enough to keep the wings level during the takeoff roll.

During lift-off, maintain wings level with aileron control. THIS DOES NOT MEAN neutral ailerons.

After lift-off, neutralize the ailerons, allow the nose to weathervane into the wind, then set up a wind correction angle to track the extended runway centerline.

Hope this helps.
 
FOD said:
If done correctly you should still have a little aileron in during rotation to help keep that upwind wing down.
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I don't think during takeoff the upwind wing should ever be down. It should be level with the runway. Once the mains are off...bank into the wind and set up the crab.
 
ColMustard said:
On the civilian side you have to run a business, and that includes keeping your clients flying. Thats not to say I lower my standards when training my students, but there are a few I would like to "washout" because of the lack of effort on their part.
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You should have no problem washing someone out is isn't capable of making the grade. When I was a CFI, my flight school (part 61) washed out two people seeking training. One was a civilian and one was a Military trained pilot that lost his medical just before completing his primary training. If they are not safe or competent don't pass them, you are doing a disservice to the entire industry.

The civilian pilot went through 3 instructors and nearly 40 hours when we sat down and agreed to wash the guy out since he was never going to solo.

The guy that was from the military didn't last too long either. He was washed out after a few lessons. The last being with the Chief Instructor. He was one of those that thought he knew everything and you couldn't tell him anything. Darn near killed me on my last flight with him and scared the Chief Instructor on the other.

Makes me wonder if he was medically DQ'd by the Air Force for being insane.:sarcasm:
 
Military pilots have no trouble with the concept. You have to keep in mind that military approach procedures are different, so the hold for military airports have different entry techniques and requirements. Do you know those? Similarly, how well do you understand ICAO holding procedures?

Bottom line is that as long as they stayed within the airspace, it doesn't matter whether they follow AIM guidelines.
 
Champcar said:
WEll i wouldnt try that landing cause I know I wouldnt be able make it. Its that simple....ofcourse you 135 drivers wouldnt know how to not fly into a unsafe situation :)
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Check out this little airport.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVKX

I used to fly in and out of there all the time, with and without crosswinds. I did a lot of flying in and out of there as a student pilot. Note the displaced thresholds and the glide path.

So, before you call a 2900x40 runway unsafe...

I'm not sure what the wings look like when I rotate with a crosswind, but I do know that I maintain the runway heading during climbout.

Timbuff, the climbout at GAI doesn't count. We have to turn 20 degrees right from the runway heading for noise abatement. :D
 
tonyw said:
Check out this little airport.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVKX

I used to fly in and out of there all the time, with and without crosswinds. I did a lot of flying in and out of there as a student pilot. Note the displaced thresholds and the glide path.

So, before you call a 2900x40 runway unsafe...

I'm not sure what the wings look like when I rotate with a crosswind, but I do know that I maintain the runway heading during climbout.

Timbuff, the climbout at GAI doesn't count. We have to turn 20 degrees right from the runway heading for noise abatement. :D
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I never said it was unsafe.
 
A 2000' runway can be a scary thing... Maybe not to you sea-level folks but you put that same runway up at 6,000' where the density altitudes can get up to 10,000' that can make the difference.

Tony, as for noise abatement... They knew about the airport before they moved there... AIM 4-3-2 C,6 is more important to me than making grandma pissy because she couldn't hear the question to the jeopardy answer. :)
 
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