Who is the PIC of the airplane during

[propsync]

Who is in charge of an airliner during push back?

Where does the question come from you might ask? Many people are surprised to learn that during boarding, if there is an incident, the Captain has no real authority to deal with the situation, it is left up to the flight attendants and ultimately the gate agents to deal with the situation as they "own" the airplane.

I've always told myself that I have no authority until the door closes. But now I'm not so sure.

According to regulations, it seems I am only the PIC once the aircraft begins to move under its own power. From Wikipedia, "The strict legal definition of PIC may vary slightly from country to country. The International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency, definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time."[1] Flight time for airplanes is defined by the U.S. FAA as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."[2] This would normally include taxiing, which involves the ground operation to and from the runway, as long as the taxiing is carried out with the intention of flying the aircraft."

So in my view, there is a period of time where the aircraft is under the authority of the ramp crew. Further, after push back if you have a problem requiring you to taxi back to the gate (you haven't taxi'd out yet), nobody seems in charge of the airplane since the airplane never taxi'd with the intention of flight.

Thoughts?

 

[Cptnchia]

I'm in charge of the aircraft and flight from the moment I walk onboard until the moment I leave the aircraft. Everyone has a job to do during the loading. Think of the captain as the conductor of the whole operation.

 

[deadstick]

This isn't a 14 CFR answer, but I think it's worth noting.

49 CFR 830

830.2 Definitions
Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked...


830.5 Immediate Notification
The operator of any civil aircraft...shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office when:
(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:


830.6 Information to be given in notification
The notification required in 830.5 shall contain the following information, if available:
...
(c) Name of the pilot-in-command;



Looks like there can be a reportable accident at the gate while boarding and the information required includes the name of the PIC.

 

[propsync]

The operator is the company.

 

[ctab5060X]

Who is in charge of an airliner during push back?

Where does the question come from you might ask? Many people are surprised to learn that during boarding, if there is an incident, the Captain has no real authority to deal with the situation, it is left up to the flight attendants and ultimately the gate agents to deal with the situation as they "own" the airplane.

I've always told myself that I have no authority until the door closes. But now I'm not so sure.

According to regulations, it seems I am only the PIC once the aircraft begins to move under its own power. From Wikipedia, "The strict legal definition of PIC may vary slightly from country to country. The International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency, definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time."[1] Flight time for airplanes is defined by the U.S. FAA as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."[2] This would normally include taxiing, which involves the ground operation to and from the runway, as long as the taxiing is carried out with the intention of flying the aircraft."

So in my view, there is a period of time where the aircraft is under the authority of the ramp crew. Further, after push back if you have a problem requiring you to taxi back to the gate (you haven't taxi'd out yet), nobody seems in charge of the airplane since the airplane never taxi'd with the intention of flight.

Thoughts?

You forget that airlines tend to go above and beyond that in FAA approved manuals.

For example... my shop expands the definition of flight time to be from OUT to IN (brake release with all external doors closed to aircraft at rest in the gate area). So in this instance, I am in command during pushback, even if I immediately taxi back to the gate.

 

[ctab5060X]

Who is in charge of an airliner during push back?

Where does the question come from you might ask? Many people are surprised to learn that during boarding, if there is an incident, the Captain has no real authority to deal with the situation, it is left up to the flight attendants and ultimately the gate agents to deal with the situation as they "own" the airplane.

I've always told myself that I have no authority until the door closes. But now I'm not so sure.

Thoughts?

Additional thoughts...

Read your manuals under duties and responsibilities. I am quite certain it is spelled out clearly when you are and are not command.

As far as a situation at the gate... my shop tells me that I have authority over all assigned crew members from the time they report for duty. So in your case, I do have authority to deal with any situation at the gate that involves any of my crew.

 

[typhoonpilot]

So in my view, there is a period of time where the aircraft is under the authority of the ramp crew. Further, after push back if you have a problem requiring you to taxi back to the gate (you haven't taxi'd out yet), nobody seems in charge of the airplane since the airplane never taxi'd with the intention of flight.

Thoughts?

If you have an APU fire during pushback or an engine fire during start you want to try to explain how the ramp crew is in charge of the airplane? Who commands the aircraft to stop during such an incident? Who commands the evacuation, if necessary, during such an incident?

Don't be pedantic in life, and especially not while operating an airplane. Use common sense and good judgement, they will rule the day over pedantic arguments when an emergency occurs.

 

[deadstick]

The operator is the company.

The dots being connected weren't "accident" and "operator," but this:

An accident can occur during boarding.
If there is an accident, it necessitates an immediate report to the NTSB.
That report shall contain the name of the PIC.

 

[propsync]

I'm in charge of the aircraft and flight from the moment I walk onboard until the moment I leave the aircraft. Everyone has a job to do during the loading. Think of the captain as the conductor of the whole operation.

So let's say there is an incident during boarding. Do you have authority over the gate agent on how you want the issue resolved? Are you in charge of the gate agent?

 

[propsync]

You forget that airlines tend to go above and beyond that in FAA approved manuals.

For example... my shop expands the definition of flight time to be from OUT to IN (brake release with all external doors closed to aircraft at rest in the gate area). So in this instance, I am in command during pushback, even if I immediately taxi back to the gate.

Can you send me the exact verbiage?

 

[propsync]

If you have an APU fire during pushback or an engine fire during start you want to try to explain how the ramp crew is in charge of the airplane? Who commands the aircraft to stop during such an incident? Who commands the evacuation, if necessary, during such an incident?

Don't be pedantic in life, and especially not while operating an airplane. Use common sense and good judgement, they will rule the day over pedantic arguments when an emergency occurs.

I'm looking to dot I's and cross T's. We have manuals and rules with thousands of published pages, they might as well be correct and well thought out.

 

[Cptnchia]

So let's say there is an incident during boarding. Do you have authority over the gate agent on how you want the issue resolved? Are you in charge of the gate agent?

Like a passenger falling down and the agent doesn't want to call EMS? Yes, I can overrule and call them. Or a laptop battery catches fire. Absolutely, I have the authority to do what I need.

Some shops do not empower their captains on the ground, at the gate. Mine does. Does that mean I can go and tell the rampers how to load the bins, or the agent where to sit people? Why would I want to though? It's about delagating. In the end though, if I'm not satisfied by the loading, W/B, fuel, route, Wx or MTC, I have the final say in how it all comes together.

All that said, just because you can be a micromanaging fool, doesn't mean you should.

 

[derg]

I'm in charge of the aircraft and flight from the moment I walk onboard until the moment I leave the aircraft. Everyone has a job to do during the loading. Think of the captain as the conductor of the whole operation.

Truth.

 

[propsync]

I'm in charge of the aircraft and flight from the moment I walk onboard until the moment I leave the aircraft. Everyone has a job to do during the loading. Think of the captain as the conductor of the whole operation.

It's good that your airline has given you that authority in writing.

 

[Cptnchia]

It's good that your airline has given you that authority in writing.

"The captain is the designated aircraft commander and has full responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft. The captain directs the activities of all crewmembers in a manner which promotes maximum safety, efficiency, and operational effectiveness."

Yes, the term, "crew members," applies to agents, rampers, dispatchers, mechanics, cleaners, fuelers, caterers.

No, your, ( anyone who wants to be pedantic and argue the semantics of the term,) definition doesn't count in this context. This is how we do it.

 

[propsync]

"The captain is the designated aircraft commander and has full responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft. The captain directs the activities of all crewmembers in a manner which promotes maximum safety, efficiency, and operational effectiveness."

Yes, the term, "crew members," applies to agents, rampers, dispatchers, mechanics, cleaners, fuelers, caterers.

No, your, ( anyone who wants to be pedantic and argue the semantics of the term,) definition doesn't count in this context. This is how we do it.

It's not semantics, its actually defined.

14 CFR 1.1 includes the following definitions related to crewmembers: Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time.

 

[Cptnchia]

It's not semantics, its actually defined.

14 CFR 1.1 includes the following definitions related to crewmembers: Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time.

<sign> Just curious why you are making this harder than it has to be. That is the definition for purposes of the FARs. In this case it is NOT the definition with respect to our FOM. Remember, the FOM can always be more than the FARs, but not less. If whatever happens that you seem worried about, it's not the FAA that you need to worry about, it's the company. If an incident happens prior to aircraft movement, what FAR have you broken? If you follow your FOM, then you're covered.

 

[propsync]

<sign> Just curious why you are making this harder than it has to be. That is the definition for purposes of the FARs. In this case it is NOT the definition with respect to our FOM. Remember, the FOM can always be more than the FARs, but not less. If whatever happens that you seem worried about, it's not the FAA that you need to worry about, it's the company. If an incident happens prior to aircraft movement, what FAR have you broken? If you follow your FOM, then you're covered.

Our FOM is obviously not as expansive as yours. I don't have the luxury of taking liberties with authority I do not have.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Our FOM is obviously not as expansive as yours. I don't have the luxury of taking liberties with authority I do not have.

Not to be flippant, but are you Australian?

 

[milleR]

Our FOM is obviously not as expansive as yours. I don't have the luxury of taking liberties with authority I do not have.

If you believe "that's not my responsibility" will be an acceptable explanation to your boss when you're standing in front of the Big Desk then by all means, proceed with that mindset.