Which is better Part61 or Part 141?
- Thread starter nkoenig
- Start date
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
61: Any CFI with an airplane can give instruction under this part.
141: More "structured" (heh, supposedly)...and "FAA approved."
Which is better? Well, I've seen 61 schools that blow the doors off some 141 schools, and vice versa. Neither is necessarily better, although with 141 you can get some of the certificates/ratings in perhaps a little less time (not much, and not always).
141: More "structured" (heh, supposedly)...and "FAA approved."
Which is better? Well, I've seen 61 schools that blow the doors off some 141 schools, and vice versa. Neither is necessarily better, although with 141 you can get some of the certificates/ratings in perhaps a little less time (not much, and not always).
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
Private - Really doesn't matter...most 141 schools would seem more reputable since the FAA has to approve their aircraft, instructors, maintenance and syllabus. It could possibly seem more organized. The King/Cessna schools work really good, as do the Sporty's and Jeppesen I would imagine. Benefit of a King/Cessna school is the ground school comes on CD (for Instrument and Commercial as well)
Instrument - You'd be crazy not to do it part 141 if you can
Commercial - 60 hour bonus here. Part 141 allows you to follow a syllabus from Private through instrument to Commercial allowing you to complete your training with similar flight requirements but lesser total time. For example, the King/Cessna system at minimum times would complete a student regulaly between 190-200 hours. However, due to higher dual given requirements of a 141 course, associated cost may be EQUAL or just slightly less. 190 hours compared to 250 is a pretty good deal...and then you can get your CFI...and the less hours you have to pay for the better.
Advantage...141
Instrument - You'd be crazy not to do it part 141 if you can
Commercial - 60 hour bonus here. Part 141 allows you to follow a syllabus from Private through instrument to Commercial allowing you to complete your training with similar flight requirements but lesser total time. For example, the King/Cessna system at minimum times would complete a student regulaly between 190-200 hours. However, due to higher dual given requirements of a 141 course, associated cost may be EQUAL or just slightly less. 190 hours compared to 250 is a pretty good deal...and then you can get your CFI...and the less hours you have to pay for the better.
Advantage...141
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I assume you are refering to the 50 hour cross country requirement for a part 61 IFR rating that isn't requried for 141.
First of all, I think some cross country experience is great and sort of think it's a good thing it's a requirement for an IFR rating. That it's not required for 141 seems strange to me....kind of a loophole.
Secondly, there are ways I can incorporate cross country flights into my 61 program to make it easier to meet the 50 hours PIC requirement at minimal extra cost.
Also, don't forget that approved ground trainers can count towards 20 hours for the part 61 IFR and 50 hours towards the part 61 Commercial.
First of all, I think some cross country experience is great and sort of think it's a good thing it's a requirement for an IFR rating. That it's not required for 141 seems strange to me....kind of a loophole.
Secondly, there are ways I can incorporate cross country flights into my 61 program to make it easier to meet the 50 hours PIC requirement at minimal extra cost.
Also, don't forget that approved ground trainers can count towards 20 hours for the part 61 IFR and 50 hours towards the part 61 Commercial.
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
Yeah the computer based training program. Some people loved it, some people hated it, but from an instructional standpoint if it's used properly it's gold.
While the cross country requirements can be a great learning tool also, if people just go and screw around for 50 hours it defeats the intent so I try and discriminate somewhat.
Your personal instructor will have better insight into it all I'm sure.
Ground Trainers/FTDs can be used for the same requirements under part 141 also...
While the cross country requirements can be a great learning tool also, if people just go and screw around for 50 hours it defeats the intent so I try and discriminate somewhat.
Your personal instructor will have better insight into it all I'm sure.
Ground Trainers/FTDs can be used for the same requirements under part 141 also...
[ QUOTE ]
61: Any CFI with an airplane can give instruction under this part.
141: More "structured" (heh, supposedly)...and "FAA approved."
Which is better? Well, I've seen 61 schools that blow the doors off some 141 schools, and vice versa. Neither is necessarily better, although with 141 you can get some of the certificates/ratings in perhaps a little less time (not much, and not always).
[/ QUOTE ]
my thoughts exactly.
61: Any CFI with an airplane can give instruction under this part.
141: More "structured" (heh, supposedly)...and "FAA approved."
Which is better? Well, I've seen 61 schools that blow the doors off some 141 schools, and vice versa. Neither is necessarily better, although with 141 you can get some of the certificates/ratings in perhaps a little less time (not much, and not always).
[/ QUOTE ]
my thoughts exactly.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Private - Really doesn't matter...most 141 schools would seem more reputable since the FAA has to approve their aircraft, instructors, maintenance and syllabus. It could possibly seem more organized. The King/Cessna schools work really good, as do the Sporty's and Jeppesen I would imagine. Benefit of a King/Cessna school is the ground school comes on CD (for Instrument and Commercial as well)
Instrument - You'd be crazy not to do it part 141 if you can
Commercial - 60 hour bonus here. Part 141 allows you to follow a syllabus from Private through instrument to Commercial allowing you to complete your training with similar flight requirements but lesser total time. For example, the King/Cessna system at minimum times would complete a student regulaly between 190-200 hours. However, due to higher dual given requirements of a 141 course, associated cost may be EQUAL or just slightly less. 190 hours compared to 250 is a pretty good deal...and then you can get your CFI...and the less hours you have to pay for the better.
Advantage...141
[/ QUOTE ]
Like ESF and Doug said there are some great 61 schools out there that blow the socks off of 141 schools (of course there are also some 141 schools that blow the socks off of some 61 schools). I think that if you prefer a 61 or 141 school depends a lot on personolized preferences as well.
I am planning on doing my ratings all at a 61 school. For me it is the perfect fit. I know the owners, the instructors, and the mechanic very well, and it offers a nice variety of equipment. They follow the Jepp syllabus BUT it is a lot more flexiable. The way I am approaching my training is similar to the way one would at a 141 school. During the summer I was there 4 or 5 days a week flying or getting ground done. Once our season is over I plan on being there 7 days a week to get my ratings done.
I have been flying a lot lately working on my instrument rating and the I have come to the conclusion that ther is NO WAY I would want to do that rating at a 141 school. In my opinion I want to be absolutely solid on my instruments and the concepts behind them. To have a syllabus layed out at a 141 school that I had to follow would not be for me. The instrument rating is one that I am working on now and I am having a ball doing it. I have been flying all through the NY B Airspace in actual conditions getting some great experiences that I would not get if I were at a 141 school.
For me the 61 school is a perfect fit. I started my PPL training in April of this year and I plan on having my CFII done by next May or early June. I will be close if not at the 250 hour mark and I will have a good concept of the ratings I hold. It will also be a little cheaper than if I were to go through a 141 school.
Private - Really doesn't matter...most 141 schools would seem more reputable since the FAA has to approve their aircraft, instructors, maintenance and syllabus. It could possibly seem more organized. The King/Cessna schools work really good, as do the Sporty's and Jeppesen I would imagine. Benefit of a King/Cessna school is the ground school comes on CD (for Instrument and Commercial as well)
Instrument - You'd be crazy not to do it part 141 if you can
Commercial - 60 hour bonus here. Part 141 allows you to follow a syllabus from Private through instrument to Commercial allowing you to complete your training with similar flight requirements but lesser total time. For example, the King/Cessna system at minimum times would complete a student regulaly between 190-200 hours. However, due to higher dual given requirements of a 141 course, associated cost may be EQUAL or just slightly less. 190 hours compared to 250 is a pretty good deal...and then you can get your CFI...and the less hours you have to pay for the better.
Advantage...141
[/ QUOTE ]
Like ESF and Doug said there are some great 61 schools out there that blow the socks off of 141 schools (of course there are also some 141 schools that blow the socks off of some 61 schools). I think that if you prefer a 61 or 141 school depends a lot on personolized preferences as well.
I am planning on doing my ratings all at a 61 school. For me it is the perfect fit. I know the owners, the instructors, and the mechanic very well, and it offers a nice variety of equipment. They follow the Jepp syllabus BUT it is a lot more flexiable. The way I am approaching my training is similar to the way one would at a 141 school. During the summer I was there 4 or 5 days a week flying or getting ground done. Once our season is over I plan on being there 7 days a week to get my ratings done.
I have been flying a lot lately working on my instrument rating and the I have come to the conclusion that ther is NO WAY I would want to do that rating at a 141 school. In my opinion I want to be absolutely solid on my instruments and the concepts behind them. To have a syllabus layed out at a 141 school that I had to follow would not be for me. The instrument rating is one that I am working on now and I am having a ball doing it. I have been flying all through the NY B Airspace in actual conditions getting some great experiences that I would not get if I were at a 141 school.
For me the 61 school is a perfect fit. I started my PPL training in April of this year and I plan on having my CFII done by next May or early June. I will be close if not at the 250 hour mark and I will have a good concept of the ratings I hold. It will also be a little cheaper than if I were to go through a 141 school.
nkoenig
New Member
Thanks for your insight.. The reason i ask is I just started my PPL and my instructor I think he has taken on way too many students, he doesnt even remember my name or how many flights we have flown etc.
I have lost confidence in him that he will have me prepared for what I need to know in a timely manner. He is at a 61 school and even the school seems a little unhelpful and unorganized. So im thinking of changing to a 141 cessna CBT school. I need structure. My current instructor hasnt even told me what books I need and Ive already been to 2 ground classes. I have asked numerous times and his response is have we flown before?
Soooo, I think im moving on to a 141 I need a structured program, thats just how I learn.
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
I've done all my learnin' under 61, and I'm a big fan. For me, it has been cheaper overall (your results may vary), and it is much more flexible. Since I work full-time (and then some), this is essential for me. I also like that there is flexibility in how I meet the reg. requirements. My understanding is that 141 req. slavish adherence to the school's syllabus. On the other hand, if you aren't encumbered by a full-time job, 141 probably would be faster overall (although not necessarily).
So, the answer to your question is: "It depends."
tonyw
Well-Known Member
If you feel you need a structured program, then I can understand why you want a 141 school. Me?
I work full time. I travel for work from time to time. I can't exactly be there every single day at a specific time.
Which means that a 61 school is better for me. I can focus when I have the time to do it, and I probably will do that between now and the end of the year. I've got two weeks of vacation that I have to burn -- no carry over for this company -- and so I may as well use it.
I work full time. I travel for work from time to time. I can't exactly be there every single day at a specific time.
Which means that a 61 school is better for me. I can focus when I have the time to do it, and I probably will do that between now and the end of the year. I've got two weeks of vacation that I have to burn -- no carry over for this company -- and so I may as well use it.
Cachon
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Also, don't forget that approved ground trainers can count towards 20 hours for the part 61 IFR and 50 hours towards the part 61 Commercial.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the PCATD consider to be an approved ground trainer?
The reasons I ask is because I did a bunch of hours on a PCATD while working on my instrument and I'm wondering if that can be use for anything other than "Aeronautical experience".
Also, don't forget that approved ground trainers can count towards 20 hours for the part 61 IFR and 50 hours towards the part 61 Commercial.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the PCATD consider to be an approved ground trainer?
The reasons I ask is because I did a bunch of hours on a PCATD while working on my instrument and I'm wondering if that can be use for anything other than "Aeronautical experience".
Wannabe2
New Member
I don't think the PCATD counts in that case....
As for the 61 vs. 141 debate, I agree that neither is better than the other, just different. Often is seems that 141 schools cost at least a bit more, ours does. It is very structured and there is a very stict adherence to the TCO.
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned. One or two busted FAA rides probably isn't a big deal when interviewing at an airline, but a few of them might raise a red flag to the interviewer.
As for the 61 vs. 141 debate, I agree that neither is better than the other, just different. Often is seems that 141 schools cost at least a bit more, ours does. It is very structured and there is a very stict adherence to the TCO.
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned. One or two busted FAA rides probably isn't a big deal when interviewing at an airline, but a few of them might raise a red flag to the interviewer.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned.
[/ QUOTE ]
If someone chooses a flight school on the idea that (s)he won't have to worry about the failed checkrides, that tells me alot about that person....
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned.
[/ QUOTE ]
If someone chooses a flight school on the idea that (s)he won't have to worry about the failed checkrides, that tells me alot about that person....
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned.
[/ QUOTE ]
If someone chooses a flight school on the idea that (s)he won't have to worry about the failed checkrides, that tells me alot about that person....
[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding. Not to mention the school, if they're using that as a marketing ploy.
Oh, and by the way: If you fail a ride at a 141 school, you darn well better report in on an airline app., because you'd be surprised the things they can find out*.
The question on an airline app. is: Have you ever failed a checkride for an FAA certificate or rating? It DOES NOT differentiate between 141 stage checks, or checkrides with the FAA. A 141 final stage check IS a checkride for an FAA certificate/rating, and SHOULD be disclosed.
If you don't disclose it, and they find out- you are done and may excuse yourself.
*During my interview, I sat down for the HR portion, and the guy starts out with: "So, you were a ski instructor for awhile...." I about crapped myself. I didn't put that on ANY application or resume, because it was through a high school ski club and wasn't really a "job." I thought they were going to grill me for not disclosing it on my employment history, but it turned out that the interviewer was a former ski racer and wanted to shoot the breeze about skiing for awhile. Phew! I'm still not sure how he found out about it, because it was several years ago, was a very short stint, and I have never put it on any application to anywhere...ever. I'm pretty sure none of my references even knew about it.
[/hijack]
[ QUOTE ]
One nice thing about our school, (and I assume many other schools as well) is that we have self governing authority on three of our ratings. That means if you bust your checkride for any of those three, (at my school - private, instrument and CFI) it dosen't show up as a busted ride as far as the FAA is concerned.
[/ QUOTE ]
If someone chooses a flight school on the idea that (s)he won't have to worry about the failed checkrides, that tells me alot about that person....
[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding. Not to mention the school, if they're using that as a marketing ploy.
Oh, and by the way: If you fail a ride at a 141 school, you darn well better report in on an airline app., because you'd be surprised the things they can find out*.
The question on an airline app. is: Have you ever failed a checkride for an FAA certificate or rating? It DOES NOT differentiate between 141 stage checks, or checkrides with the FAA. A 141 final stage check IS a checkride for an FAA certificate/rating, and SHOULD be disclosed.
If you don't disclose it, and they find out- you are done and may excuse yourself.
*During my interview, I sat down for the HR portion, and the guy starts out with: "So, you were a ski instructor for awhile...." I about crapped myself. I didn't put that on ANY application or resume, because it was through a high school ski club and wasn't really a "job." I thought they were going to grill me for not disclosing it on my employment history, but it turned out that the interviewer was a former ski racer and wanted to shoot the breeze about skiing for awhile. Phew! I'm still not sure how he found out about it, because it was several years ago, was a very short stint, and I have never put it on any application to anywhere...ever. I'm pretty sure none of my references even knew about it.
[/hijack]
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
No, and definitely not.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone tell me the difference between 61 and 141 and which is better?
[/ QUOTE ]
The short answer is: "Whichever is best for YOU."
Me, personally? I did all of mine Part 61 because it allowed me to work full time and go at my own pace. In the "end" I have spent somewhere around just over $30K - start to finish.
However, it took me 2.5 years.
However, However, I feel the training I got was top notch and wouldn't trade it for the world.
So.. there it is.
Whatever works best for you and your budget/time-limitations/work-study-ethic, etc. is the best.
Whichever you choose, best of luck! Fly safe and keep us posted on your progress!!
R2F
Can anyone tell me the difference between 61 and 141 and which is better?
[/ QUOTE ]
The short answer is: "Whichever is best for YOU."
Me, personally? I did all of mine Part 61 because it allowed me to work full time and go at my own pace. In the "end" I have spent somewhere around just over $30K - start to finish.
However, it took me 2.5 years.
However, However, I feel the training I got was top notch and wouldn't trade it for the world.
So.. there it is.
Whatever works best for you and your budget/time-limitations/work-study-ethic, etc. is the best.
Whichever you choose, best of luck! Fly safe and keep us posted on your progress!!
R2F