Where to go? - ATP, UVSC

TheWife said:
Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.
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GET THE DEGREE... I disagree with you. Lets say a RGL airline is hiring, you submit your resume, and does the other guy. You both have the time and ratings... your flight exp. is about the same. But the other guy has a degree. Guess who gets hired?? The guy with a degree.... GET YOUR DEGREE and stay away from UVSC!
 
I really wouldn't like studying all the FAA books in front of a computer screen. Anyways...

bdhill1979 said:
One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.
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This is VERY true. You are what you put in this program. No hand holding. If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch. From the pilots I have seen up here you can through commercial multi without much effort or knowledge. Those individuals are quite shocked to say the least when they arrive for CFI school.
 
bdhill1979 said:
Print out no, but you are using a computer right now aren't you? We do live on the 21st century.

Why would a student pilot ever need EVERY approach plate in publication? just print the ones you need.

Low altitude enroute charts cost $4.50 at the FBO, buy the ones you need.

As for lodging and all that, those are cost incurred by attending a program like that, our students live here.


One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.

The bottom line going through a certificate mill or a mom and pop FBO, you still have the same ratings at the end of it. I think that for some people programs like ATP make sense, but for others there is no need to "get there first".
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It doesn't freeking matter if you GO FBO and take 2 years spending 20k, or going ATP spending 50k with all their programs, and stuff included. The pilot will only get out what he/she puts in to it. Period. I ordered the CFI study manual and a bunch of other cool stuff. I have till Feb 08 to study everything. And I already have a good background of aviation. I'm not going to show up with my pants to my knees bent over. :rawk:
 
eagledriver101 said:
It doesn't freeking matter if you GO FBO and take 2 years spending 20k, or going ATP spending 50k with all their programs, and stuff included. The pilot will only get out what he/she puts in to it.
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It does "FREEKING" matter when you are paying back the loan in an industry as unstable as this one. Making a payment on a $50,000 loan is a lot harder than making a payment on a $20,000 loan,especially with a family. Ask any of the guys and gals that got furloughed in this last round how making payments and bills was.
 
It does not matter, eaither way you spent a lot of cash, and because you didn't put the effort in, you will not get anywhere. I want to fly for a career, I don't want to be teaching still when I am 30... there is not a damn thing wrong with doing it fast or spedning the money to do it. You're bias plain ans simple. If you had cancer would you want to go to a "Community collage Doctor" or one who spent a lot more and graduated form Harvard?
 
bdhill1979 said:
"Ask any of the guys and gals that got furloughed in this last round how making payments and bills was.
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Why should I? "So, Mrss. you had trouble paying your loan? Yes, I got furloughed" Okay, well I better not go to ATP and spend the money then"

This is why I won't go to an FBO... Because the ones I have ran into, think they know everthing about the aviation idustry, and treat me like I don't know what I talking about. "Now this is what you want to do..., and this is not what you want to do..." because, because, because...

(Not bashing you FBO guys, I know alot of you are great wonderful pilots, who have tons of exp and knowledge about our world, I respect you and your accomlishments) I know I could get quailty training from many of you, I just really like the ATP route, I like what it has to offer. And most of the FBO's cant do what I want.
 
eagledriver101 said:
It doesn't freeking matter if you GO FBO and take 2 years spending 20k, or going ATP spending 50k with all their programs, and stuff included.
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Wow. Maybe not to you, but there's a substantial difference between $50,000 and $20,000. It's called $30,000. Which five checkrides, some books, and an hour in a Citation doesn't make much of a dent in. Argue the respective merits of each route all you want, but I would avoid saying that the price difference "doesn't freeking matter".

eagledriver101 said:
If you had cancer would you want to go to a "Community collage Doctor" or one who spent a lot more and graduated form Harvard?
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If you're seriously comparing a traditional FBO to a "community collage [sic] Doctor" and ATP to Harvard, you have a lot to learn about the industry. And besides, only Embry-Riddle and UND can be compared to Harvard.

You say:
eagledriver101 said:
Not bashing you FBO guys, I know alot of you are great wonderful pilots, who have tons of exp and knowledge about our world, I respect you and your accomlishments
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But then you say...
This is why I won't go to an FBO... Because the ones I have ran into, think they know everthing about the aviation idustry, and treat me like I don't know what I talking about.
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As opposed to the marketing schemes of major academies, which definitely don't pretend to know everything about the aviation industry and would never produce ads/marketing that assume their customers don't know what they're talking about. (sarcasm?)
 
Let's cooool those (r.) jets people.

Honestly, if money isn't really an issue to people and they want to blast 50k for something like ATP, more power to them. Don't think you are going to get a better education than at an FBO or anywhere else; although, It will certainly be faster.

I find it funny ATP is now considered one of the 'expensive' places now, as when I was planning to go there it's cheap price was one of the biggest selling points.

Now I am certain I will not go there, because 20,000, hell 2,000 is a lot of money to me.

I plan on getting the initial stuff (pvt, maybe instr rating) locally and going to somewhere like Skymates to power me forward.
 
eagledriver101 said:
It does not matter, eaither way you spent a lot of cash, and because you didn't put the effort in, you will not get anywhere. I want to fly for a career, I don't want to be teaching still when I am 30... there is not a damn thing wrong with doing it fast or spedning the money to do it. You're bias plain ans simple. If you had cancer would you want to go to a "Community collage Doctor" or one who spent a lot more and graduated form Harvard?
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eagledriver101 said:
Why should I? "So, Mrss. you had trouble paying your loan? Yes, I got furloughed" Okay, well I better not go to ATP and spend the money then"

This is why I won't go to an FBO... Because the ones I have ran into, think they know everthing about the aviation idustry, and treat me like I don't know what I talking about. "Now this is what you want to do..., and this is not what you want to do..." because, because, because...

(Not bashing you FBO guys, I know alot of you are great wonderful pilots, who have tons of exp and knowledge about our world, I respect you and your accomlishments) I know I could get quailty training from many of you, I just really like the ATP route, I like what it has to offer. And most of the FBO's cant do what I want.
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I have no idea what your point is; so this one is for you Dough:

whatever
 
JDMcFly said:
Let's cooool those (r.) jets people.
It will certainly be faster.
You are right about that! Probably the best advantage of the ATP program is its speed, if you can handle it. Now remember the 49k is not just for flying cost, it also adds the cost of putting on in the immersive environment, which helps many students focus. When you look at the total package ATP offers (flying, housing and travel accomodations etc.) I think its a pretty good deal. There are plenty of flights schools out there that charge 80k+
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eagledriver101 said:
GET THE DEGREE... I disagree with you. Lets say a RGL airline is hiring, you submit your resume, and does the other guy. You both have the time and ratings... your flight exp. is about the same. But the other guy has a degree. Guess who gets hired?? The guy with a degree.... GET YOUR DEGREE and stay away from UVSC!
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The regionals are hiring enough people right now that they can hire BOTH of the candidates you described. Only, the one with the degree is probably 3-4 years older than the other and wishing he had got to the regional as fast as the other candidate, who is younger, and will have the same seniority as him. While I respect your opinion, I'm on the other side of the hill that you are just starting to approach. So my opinion stands. (And when I say stay away from UVSC, I mean as far as the flying. The college itself is fine, too easy probably, but it still works and is affordable.)
 
TheWife said:
The regionals are hiring enough people right now that they can hire BOTH of the candidates you described. Only, the one with the degree is probably 3-4 years older than the other and wishing he had got to the regional as fast as the other candidate, who is younger, and will have the same seniority as him. While I respect your opinion, I'm on the other side of the hill that you are just starting to approach. So my opinion stands. (And when I say stay away from UVSC, I mean as far as the flying. The college itself is fine, too easy probably, but it still works and is affordable.)
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Something else you've got to take into consideration, Michelle, is that not everybody has the drive (or the time) to complete a degree online while at a regional. For every guy I hear talking about doing it, I swear there are 4 or 5 others that keep talking about how they don't have any time to do it. Congrats, they just got stuck at Skywest. Now that's great for me, but it sucks for them.

Further, if you graduated high school at age 18 and let's say you trained and instructed for a year, then you got hired at Skywest at 19, you can't even upgrade for 4 years because of ATP minimums. So now you're going to spend 4 years as a first officer "building senority" that you can't use.

It's a two way street.
 
I don't know anyone that graduated at 18 and got to a regional at 19, but hey, I'm coming from a UVSC experience, where you end up in your 30's by the time you're done lol. I think for someone that takes a couple of years to get their training done, and then instructs for a year, and gets to a regional at say 21-22, and does have the drive to do the classes online (which seems way easier to me than having the drive to go to school on campus, but that's just me!), I think it would make more sense to do the degree second. They'd be upgrading about the time they finished their schooling, and could move on or stay put, if they chose to.
 
See now this is where the dicussion gets interesting for me.

I'm extremely concerned that there are people out there that think that staying at a regional long term if you're under 40 is a good career move. We're raising a generation of pilots that is pysched to fly regional jets as opposed to mainline jets, and they're so excited about it they'll fly 90 seat RJ's for 50 seat pay (I'm looking at the the Skywest guys that voted that one in right now).

But what's so bad about flying an RJ for the rest of your career? Nothing if there was SOME level of stability. I don't think anybody that has taken a look at the history of this career would advocate making your career at a contract career to their worst enemy. Right now Skywest is hot ####, but so was Mesaba 5 years ago. What happened to those poor guys when red tail pulled the rug out from under them?

Avoid planning your career at a contract carrier, because if they decide that somebody else can do your job for less then they're going to pull the rug out from under you and say, "Sorry, it's just business." If you're at Delta, you OWN the routes and your job won't simply be pissed away to another comapny because they gave a lower bid, because there is no bidding process.

If you're under 40 and still have an oppertunity to spend a good solid 25 years at a major and you give it up because of some percieved notion of a good life, I think you're sorely mistaken. Sure you might have 20 days off a month and make $100,000 a year right now, but what happens when Skywest implodes and Express Jet takes the flying? It's already happened with ASA and the Delta flying out of LAX, Express Jet just put 18 planes there. Or hows about Air Wisky and losing the United contract? What happened to Mesaba? Hows about the Pinnacle/Compass/Mesaba cluster#### that's about to unfold? Who ever thought that ACA was going to disapear? And what DID happen to Comair? They had an industry leading contract shortly after they struck, where are they now?

Somebody will come back and say, "Well this is just the way the industry works." No, this is how the REGIONAL industry works. The mainlines, as much as they have their drawbacks, DO NOT go through this crap. Regionals are playing musical chairs beacuse of the nature of their work (feeder flying).

Moral of the story? Get the degree and move as high as you can on the food chain, because things look great now but we dont' have a clue about how they'll look in 5 years, letalone 5 minutes from now. Now if you're old and you won't ever move to a major anyways, then enjoy your time at Skywest. But if you're still young (and by young, I really do mean under 40) and planning a career at the regionals, I have to question whether you've put the research into the history of this industry.

BTW Michelle I don't mean you specifically in this post, I mean in general. This is a theme that I've seen more and more on here and it concerns me that we, as a group of pilots, are selling ourselves short and not looking long term.
 
TheWife said:
I think it would make more sense to do the degree second. They'd be upgrading about the time they finished their schooling, and could move on or stay put, if they chose to.
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While it may "make more sense.." it is just like the old "I'll go back to school after the baby" thing... How many actually go back?

If you can stick to it, great.. I think the law of averages has more people getting stuck at the regional because they didn't do the degree..

With an online degree you have ALL KINDS OF STUFF to distract you.. When you are sitting in a class room, you are quazi-forced to learn..

I've also heard some stories of online degree's being scoffed at by some majors.. I have no idea how true that is.. Just what I've been told.. from a guy with an online degree and a guy who knows a guy.. :D
 
I've also heard some stories of online degree's being scoffed at by some majors.. I have no idea how true that is.. Just what I've been told.. from a guy with an online degree and a guy who knows a guy..
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They don't even know! My husband's degree does not say "This student took his classes online instead of coming into the campus". He did some of both, depending on the class and schedule. His degree doesn't look any different than someone who did it all on campus or all online, so how could a major even know?
 
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