WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Vee-dub...on the German engineering tip, y'all!
I'm still reading the book to make sense out of it.:laff:I don't even understand how our payscale works.
"When you see a Pilot, they're not getting paid."
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Try rolling up in a 92 pontiac grand am with no knobs and a backseat full of empty coffee cups!
Meanwhile some kid working at a bar is driving an M3 down the street.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
No, I said we are paid for being on duty (ie salary). Our min guarantee is our salary. We have a higher hourly wage to reflect that we "work" more than our min guarantee. We have the potential to go above our base salary.
Sorta. Min guarantee is based upon credit - which takes into account FAR block time, deadhead, min day pay, duty pay, and trip pay.
Actually I would be paid 7 hours, 14/2 = 7.
In December I had 49:02 of flight time and 107 hours of credit.
EatSleepFly said:
I'm confused, you say AMF pilots are paid per duty hour but ESF says he's paid 8 hours and is gone 15 hours. This is what I mean when I said we are both paid the same.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
You're gonna have to do a better job of 'plainin' because I'm totally lost. Now you don't get paid to sit at an outstation?
So can you be on duty for 2 hours while you fly to an outstation, then go off duty, then be on duty for 2 hours while you fly back to the hub, then go off duty?
I don't think the two systems of paying are that far apart - one you get paid a lesser wage while getting paid while on duty, the other you get paid a set amount for work up to a certain amount, then more if you go above. Each has its advantages AND disadvantages. The fact that fellow employees don't understand how the pay works certainly is the same here though!
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
OK, I am understanding it now.
In a typical month, my duty pay works out to about $28-$30/hr, working a regular line. FWIW. Some months it's in the $40's.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Right, we don't have a variable rate. We're paid strictly by the duty hour, and if you end up on a run that goes over 40 (I.E. You're on duty for 48 hours in a week), you're paid for 48 hours. Again, guys in my base will never see 40 hours of duty, but we're paid for every hour of duty.
Then it gets even more tricky when you get into training events, but that's a whole different ball of wax.
Then it gets even more tricky when you get into training events, but that's a whole different ball of wax.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
We're not discussing merit, we're discussing brass tacks of how we're paid.
Now if you want to talk about merit, I think our schedules suck for the line pilots in a few bases. I've seen guys that pull what would be to you guys 5 CDO's in a row and not get paid any better for it because they're actually working LESS duty time than most people. I think that's crap, but it's how the schedules are built here. I'm hoping at some point we become staffed properly so we don't have these problems, but right now we've pretty much got one pilot per aircraft system wide.
Now if you want to talk about merit, I think our schedules suck for the line pilots in a few bases. I've seen guys that pull what would be to you guys 5 CDO's in a row and not get paid any better for it because they're actually working LESS duty time than most people. I think that's crap, but it's how the schedules are built here. I'm hoping at some point we become staffed properly so we don't have these problems, but right now we've pretty much got one pilot per aircraft system wide.
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
I see what your trying to say, but it's not the same. Being away from your friends and family most of the month. If your a commuter spending time trying to catch that last flight home on standby when your #16 list and they only have 10 seats left. Having to go through security everytime that you go to work. The free flights are a benefit but do not compensate the overall issues that one has to go through. People do not understand this one but I am sick and tired of eating out. Trust me, a home cooked meal is 10X better than figuring out whether or not your going to get the burger, chicken fingers, salad, or reuben sandwich for the 1000th time. I love my job and am very grateful for the opportunity that I have. Like Doug said it's no fun doing a 14 and 1/2 day and only being paid 5-6 hours for it.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Right - and you are paid per duty hour no matter what you do. My point is that we have different ways of getting paid just like you do - it's not as simple as saying we are only paid for flight time, at least not here.
I think both systems have advantages and disadvantages.
Bumblebee
Commodore
I think the main point of this post was to aid us in changing the perspective of the public in a consice way. Management uses the hourly rate in their PR,
without including the fact that that payrate only applies when the brake is off with the door closed. This list gives us a way to educate folks that think my $20.00 an hour applies to the 14hour duty day I just pulled, when in actuality it only applies to the 6 hours of block credit I logged. That is a big distinction that needs to be communicated to the public in a big way in order to have their support in future negotiations or job actions. Otherwise they think I pulled down 280 dollars as a first year FO yesterday instead of the 120 I actually made. Big difference.
without including the fact that that payrate only applies when the brake is off with the door closed. This list gives us a way to educate folks that think my $20.00 an hour applies to the 14hour duty day I just pulled, when in actuality it only applies to the 6 hours of block credit I logged. That is a big distinction that needs to be communicated to the public in a big way in order to have their support in future negotiations or job actions. Otherwise they think I pulled down 280 dollars as a first year FO yesterday instead of the 120 I actually made. Big difference.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Sorry MF...even at NJA.
10 year reserve BBJ Capts base is 230K. With a few extended days and OT pay, 300K is very attainable. Unfortunately, newhires have about as much chance of ever seeing a BBJ as a DAL 777 left seat. We also have some Citation V pilots in the 200K club.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/fractional/netjets.html
Since I can't keep up with the whole thread, here is our summary.
Salary based on number of days/mo worked (2 choices)
OT for starting before 0800 on Day 1
OT for working over 9 hrs on day 1
OT for working 12-14 hours any day
2 Extended days pay for unrealistically scheduled home after midnight on last day
1 Extended days pay for after midnight (last day) because of wx/pax/airline delay.
Extended day pay for holidays
Per Diem for all time away from domicile
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
John, we had this discussion in the chat the other night, but I don't think we finished it. Sure, we could get paid per duty hour, but like I said, the hourly wage isn't gonna stay $20+ an hour that way. You yourself get $12, as you said. On a normal, 8 hour day, a first year FO here would bring in $165.84 a day. That's a first year FO. No WAY the company could remain competitive on that. Your response was that we'd have to take a stand to keep the pay rates. Now, do you honestly think even AMF would still be in business if they were paying all of their new hires $165 a day, not to mention what they would pay the guys with experience and longevity with the company? Hell, a first year street CA at Pinnacle would be $440 a day. So, just with two guys off the street, you're talking over $600 just for the two pilot crew. It wouldn't "force them to use the crews more effeciently," it would force them out of business. So, let's consider a salaried NetJets person, since they are considered by many to rake in the dough. I'll take the $39,000 as a comparison since that's the lowest scale according to APC. Dived that by 365 days in a year, then 8 hours for an 8 hour work day (same as I did for the above PCL guys), and it's $13.36 an hour.
I'll be the first to say we're underpaid at the regional level, but to think that we'd be able to hold the pay rates we have AND ask to be paid per duty hour just isn't realistic, especially when guys that make $19K more a year than we do break down like that. But, like someone said, airline management likes to talk about how we're paid so much per hour, but they leave out how many hours we're actually PAID for. They let the general public do what they do best, assume. I don't see it as a "pilot whine" but as an attempt to educate the general public. If they knew how much we did when we weren't getting paid, they wouldn't assume the figures management tosses out to newspapers is multiplied by 40 every week.
I'll be the first to say we're underpaid at the regional level, but to think that we'd be able to hold the pay rates we have AND ask to be paid per duty hour just isn't realistic, especially when guys that make $19K more a year than we do break down like that. But, like someone said, airline management likes to talk about how we're paid so much per hour, but they leave out how many hours we're actually PAID for. They let the general public do what they do best, assume. I don't see it as a "pilot whine" but as an attempt to educate the general public. If they knew how much we did when we weren't getting paid, they wouldn't assume the figures management tosses out to newspapers is multiplied by 40 every week.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
That doesn't work because we don't work 365 days per year. The 7/7 sched is a base of 182 days and the (published) daily rate is $214.29, his extended day (OT) rate is $321.43
We can access our flight and duty times online, looking a a couple of tours
I work approx 75 hours/week and fly approx 25.
I divided my salary by my flt hours/year and got $300/hr
I won't say "raking" in the dough, but at least we aren't laughed at anymore
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Could we afford to pay our pilots better? No doubt about it, but we're still making more than regional guys are. We're not involved in being the lowest bidder; we're involved in providing the highest quality service at a price that is resonable for what the customer gets and we make a lot of money doing that. Heck, pilot602 pointed out a few weeks ago that Skywest could give every pilot a $10,000 A MONTH raise and still not make a dent in the profits of the company.
That's why we're the biggest part 135 cargo company in the country, not because we're under bidding other people. One of the most striking things the president said in indoc was that we've had people say, "X company will do it cheaper!" and we said, "Well, we can't match that price." They came back to us a few months later when their boxes stopped showing up.
That's what we sell right there, being on time 99.7% of the time.
Like I said, we're not the regionals and we don't play the same game.
That's why we're the biggest part 135 cargo company in the country, not because we're under bidding other people. One of the most striking things the president said in indoc was that we've had people say, "X company will do it cheaper!" and we said, "Well, we can't match that price." They came back to us a few months later when their boxes stopped showing up.
That's what we sell right there, being on time 99.7% of the time.
Like I said, we're not the regionals and we don't play the same game.