When to turn on course?

whiskeycharlie

Well-Known Member
Here's the scenario:

You are taking off IFR from an airport with an operating control tower. There is a VOR on the field and no DP is published. Your clearance begins with "Cleared to ABC airport via Victor Airway DEF...". The victor airway is that between the VOR on the field and another. When cleared for takeoff, would you normally expect vectors to intercept this? I have not filed IFR much lately, but all I got from the tower was "Cleared for takeoff." Does this mean I should turn on course at my discretion (i.e. choose whatever intercept angle I deem appropriate), and does the rule about not turning until reaching 400' agl apply here? Thanks for the input!
 
Here's the scenario:

You are taking off IFR from an airport with an operating control tower. There is a VOR on the field and no DP is published. Your clearance begins with "Cleared to ABC airport via Victor Airway DEF...". The victor airway is that between the VOR on the field and another. When cleared for takeoff, would you normally expect vectors to intercept this? I have not filed IFR much lately, but all I got from the tower was "Cleared for takeoff." Does this mean I should turn on course at my discretion (i.e. choose whatever intercept angle I deem appropriate), and does the rule about not turning until reaching 400' agl apply here? Thanks for the input!

Cleared for takeoff typically means just that. All you're going to do is wait to be handed off to departure and listen for instructions. Are you sure all they said was "Cleared for Takeoff" with no heading or altitude instructions?

Either way, you will either be vectored to this course or told "Resume own navigation" and those are the points at which you would turn to intercept the airway.
 
Yes, I am sure that the only instructions I received were "Cleared for takeoff." This happened about a month ago, but it has been on my mind for awhile because it was a little unnerving. I was taking off out of Flagstaff, AZ with very low ceilings and there are some pretty big mountains down there. After "Cleared for takeoff" the next thing I heard, approx five minutes later was, "Cessna ABC, if you're still on with me, contact Center."
 
Yes, I am sure that the only instructions I received were "Cleared for takeoff." This happened about a month ago, but it has been on my mind for awhile because it was a little unnerving. I was taking off out of Flagstaff, AZ with very low ceilings and there are some pretty big mountains down there. After "Cleared for takeoff" the next thing I heard, approx five minutes later was, "Cessna ABC, if you're still on with me, contact Center."

I guess that seems a little weird, I wasn't there so I can't really help. Just follow their directions, and if you're unsure....ask!
 
That seems very odd if you are IFR for them not to give a heading to fly. Seeing as it is a Class D without a TRACON, I would have to assume ATC there would have to call Albuquerque Center on the interphone to get a release on you, and center would tell the tower what they wanted you to do, and that should be included with your takeoff clearance, even if it is something like "N12345, procede on V123, Runway XX cleared for takeoff" If that happens again, I would definately ask while still on the ground to see what they want you to do. Since you're IFR, they should give you a control instruction in the takeoff clearance, or maybe even shortly after to tell you what to do. You should not assume they want you to do something though, since you are IFR. When in doubt, ask.
 
...and no DP is published....

...I was taking off out of Flagstaff, AZ with very low ceilings and there are some pretty big mountains down there....

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/SW4TO.PDF

"FLAGSTAFF, AZ
FLAGSTAFF PULLIAM
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 3, turn right. Rwy 21,
turn left. Aircraft departing FLG R-160 CW R-175 climb
on course. All others climb southbound on FLG R-172
to 9000, then climbing left turn direct FLG VOR/DME."

:confused:
 
Yes, I am sure that the only instructions I received were "Cleared for takeoff." This happened about a month ago, but it has been on my mind for awhile because it was a little unnerving. I was taking off out of Flagstaff, AZ with very low ceilings and there are some pretty big mountains down there. After "Cleared for takeoff" the next thing I heard, approx five minutes later was, "Cessna ABC, if you're still on with me, contact Center."

What was given to you in your ATC clearance that FLG tower would've read to you in the IFR release from ZAB? You should've had a clearance limit, departure instructions, routing (at least initial), altitude, holding/EFC (if applicable), departure freq (ZAB in this case), and squawk. These are all the basic parts of an IFR clearance. FLG tower in a non-radar Class D, so all their responsbility to do is clear you for takeoff, not provide vectors or anything; effecting the clearance portion is up to you once airborne. I would've expected a frequency change from them earlier than 5 minutes though.
 
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/SW4TO.PDF

"FLAGSTAFF, AZ
FLAGSTAFF PULLIAM
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 3, turn right. Rwy 21,
turn left. Aircraft departing FLG R-160 CW R-175 climb
on course. All others climb southbound on FLG R-172
to 9000, then climbing left turn direct FLG VOR/DME."

:confused:

Well, I stand corrected :) I think I was just missing this in my binder. Do they normally tell you to fly the DP in your clearance? Again, the first routing I was assigned was the victor airway. Thanks!
 
Well, I stand corrected :) I think I was just missing this in my binder. Do they normally tell you to fly the DP in your clearance? Again, the first routing I was assigned was the victor airway. Thanks!

An obstacle departure procedure is usually flown without any clearance from ATC. Since you were not issued any specific departure instructions, I'd fly the published ODP. In this case, your route of flight would determine if you would simply turn on course or if you'd need to climb to 9000 and turn back to the VOR first.

You'd certainly be more familiar with the area than I, but does the center even have radar coverage down to the airport?
 
What was given to you in your ATC clearance that FLG tower would've read to you in the IFR release from ZAB? You should've had a clearance limit, departure instructions, routing (at least initial), altitude, holding/EFC (if applicable), departure freq (ZAB in this case), and squawk. These are all the basic parts of an IFR clearance. FLG tower in a non-radar Class D, so all their responsbility to do is clear you for takeoff, not provide vectors or anything; effecting the clearance portion is up to you once airborne. I would've expected a frequency change from them earlier than 5 minutes though.

While they cannot provide radar services, I would still expect they would need to get the IFR release from ZAB. While not knowing what their LOA states, I still would expect they would need to get the release, and inform the pilot whatever ZAB wants them to do upon departure. I know in the VFR tower I was at, that was the norm. Call to get the release, and then tell the pilot that in the T/O clearance "N12345, turn left/right heading XXX/fly rwy heading/proceed direct XXX VOR, wind XXX, rwy XX, cleared for takeoff"
 
While they cannot provide radar services, I would still expect they would need to get the IFR release from ZAB. While not knowing what their LOA states, I still would expect they would need to get the release, and inform the pilot whatever ZAB wants them to do upon departure. I know in the VFR tower I was at, that was the norm. Call to get the release, and then tell the pilot that in the T/O clearance "N12345, turn left/right heading XXX/fly rwy heading/proceed direct XXX VOR, wind XXX, rwy XX, cleared for takeoff"

Isn't that what I just wrote, and you quoted? :D
 
But in this case there IS a published ODP (see post #6 above). Let's assume he filed something like:

KFLG FLG V291 GUP KGUP

...isn't it an acceptable clearance to receive "cleared as filed"? Or if he had filed DIRECT, receive a clearance that said "Cleared to Gallup airport via V291, GUP, direct?"

Then the tower would only need to issue "Cleared to takeoff runway 21", and he would be expected to comply with this:

"FLAGSTAFF, AZ
FLAGSTAFF PULLIAM
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 3, turn right. Rwy 21,
turn left. Aircraft departing FLG R-160 CW R-175 climb
on course. All others climb southbound on FLG R-172
to 9000, then climbing left turn direct FLG VOR/DME."

He would take off runway 21, at 400 feet or clear of obstacles he would turn left, intercept FLG R-172 and climb to 9000 feet, then perform a climbing left turn direct back to FLG, then turn right to track the FLG R-083 (V291) outbound.

In a case like this it is entirely possible that neither the clearance nor the take-off instructions will explicitly give turn-by-turn directions. It wil be assumed that he will fly the ODP (or provide his own terrain clearance to join the cleared route!).

References:

http://airnav.com/airport/KFLG
http://skyvector.com/#49-25-3-3893-750
http://airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/SW4TO.PDF
 
But in this case there IS a published ODP (see post #6 above). Let's assume he filed something like:

Thats correct. The ODP is the method for departing the airfield IMC if no other overriding instructions are given in the clearance.
 
Then the tower would only need to issue "Cleared to takeoff runway 21", and he would be expected to comply with this:

"FLAGSTAFF, AZ
FLAGSTAFF PULLIAM
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 3, turn right. Rwy 21,
turn left. Aircraft departing FLG R-160 CW R-175 climb
on course. All others climb southbound on FLG R-172
to 9000, then climbing left turn direct FLG VOR/DME."

He would take off runway 21, at 400 feet or clear of obstacles he would turn left, intercept FLG R-172 and climb to 9000 feet, then perform a climbing left turn direct back to FLG, then turn right to track the FLG R-083 (V291) outbound.

I don't believe he would be expected to comply with the DP. That is his choice. I know as a 121 Air Carrier we have to but part 91 ops do not dictate it's requirement to be flown, or am I off base?

If you want to fly the DP you should advise ATC, it is your prerogative. Chances are when you check in w/ departure they will call radar contact and give you vectors anyway.

That being said if they do not, and your clearance was "cleared for takeoff", I would either fly the DP or the cleared route if Day VFR. But I wouldn't just fly the DP without letting ATC know what I am doing. That DP is most likely there for uncontrolled operations.

FWIW when I was instructing out west and departing uncontrolled fields w/ DP's I would let the center know, their response was always "roger". Almost like they could care less :D.
 
I don't believe he would be expected to comply with the DP. That is his choice. I know as a 121 Air Carrier we have to but part 91 ops do not dictate it's requirement to be flown, or am I off base?
It's a requirement if you want to be sure you won't hit something...
 
It's a requirement if you want to be sure you won't hit something...
So how do aircraft operating VFR out of this airport avoid not hitting anything? Do they do the obstacle DP every time when they do a pattern?
 
So how do aircraft operating VFR out of this airport avoid not hitting anything? Do they do the obstacle DP every time when they do a pattern?
Sorry, I thought the OP was discussing ops in IMC.

Not sure what Center would expect you to do in VMC. I guess when in doubt, clarify with the controller.
 
Thats correct. The ODP is the method for departing the airfield IMC if no other overriding instructions are given in the clearance.

Thank you for clarifying this. I expected that you would always receive instructions to fly the DP in the clearance. So, in the future I suppose it would be a good idea to tell the tower or center that you are flying it? Also, lets say your airplane is not capable of meeting the climb gradient in a given ODP. If you were taking off out of a controlled field in IMC, could you simply request to circle to altitude over the airport? Thanks for everyone's input.
 
Back
Top