When planning a X-Country....

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Yeah man, don't worry Jason....it's the CAFFEINE that has you that way... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Lol, its the lack of caffeine that has me that way. I shouldn't post before I've had at least 2 cups of coffee. Scratch that, I shouldn't do anything prior to the first 2 cups of the day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Who did you get for your stage check pilot?
 
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Sure it's realistic. What about when you're inbound into China on a bombing run low-level (after we go to war with them), and GPS/VORs etc are all being jammed? Better be able to terrain follow! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


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At JC Air America, we don't even need avionics in the airplane!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, MikeD...I know that you guys do a whole lot more low-level, high-speed, long-distance NAV training...what's the longest low-level VFR flight you've done in the A-10?

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Seriously speaking. A 250 NM XC could easily be broken up into a DR leg, a pilotage leg, and an electronic nav leg.

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That's exactly how we did it in my private pilot training. It's awesome because it covers all of your bases. Nothing like an idiot private pilot that can't use a VOR because "He's VFR...". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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Sure it's realistic. What about when you're inbound into China on a bombing run low-level (after we go to war with them), and GPS/VORs etc are all being jammed? Better be able to terrain follow! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


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At JC Air America, we don't even need avionics in the airplane!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, MikeD...I know that you guys do a whole lot more low-level, high-speed, long-distance NAV training...what's the longest low-level VFR flight you've done in the A-10?



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@270 NM with multiple turnpoints and "target areas" to find. Mostly E&Eing through mountainous terrian. A black line course, but you never stuck to it, mainly since the object was to terrain-mask behind the mountains/hills, while going the proper direction and only unmasking to make a quick ridge-cross when there was no other out, or when the we needed to get into another valley complex. 370 kts at 500 AGL.
 
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370 kts at 500 AGL.

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Well, that'll keep you on your toes.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Who did you get for your stage check pilot?

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I got Taylor Bolton...
Hope he's not gay like most are around here.
 
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I would NEVER teach a student to do a 250 mile cross country flight without backing it all up with some form of electronic navigation.

Not only is it unrealistic, it would be incredibly reckless to rely on dead reckoning and pilotage as your primary means of navigation in the "real world" (read : Post-private pilot training) of flying, assuming that you're equipped.

Know how to dead reckon, and know how to use pilotage - but know how to use VOR's, airways, NDB's and intersections such as well.

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I am with mtsu on this one. And when I was doing 221 at UND, anything more than 1 page was too much. So usually I had between 50-70 mile legs, which I don't think is wrong. We have dual garmins and it would be dumb not to use all available resources.

Also, i /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifsn't there a paper work reduction act going around, well think of those trees during flight planning!
 
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Not only is it unrealistic, it would be incredibly reckless to rely on dead reckoning and pilotage as your primary means of navigation in the "real world" (read : Post-private pilot training) of flying, assuming that you're equipped.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry. Our primary means of navigation in the Colorado mountains is pilotage and dead reckoning. In normally aspirated engines we're usually well below the surrounding terrain. VOR is completely unreliable (line of sight remember) and a direct GPS route can make you one with the earth, literally. Without good pilotage and dead reckoning skills, the terrain you can't out climb can be just across the pass that's only 20° left of the one you =should= have crossed.
 
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Who did you get for your stage check pilot?

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I got Taylor Bolton...
Hope he's not gay like most are around here.

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Not that there's anything wrong with that.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Not that there's anything wrong with that.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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LOL, I don't mean "homosexual", ha ha ha. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Gay as in.... them being a**holes....as in being stupid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Lots of gay instructors here... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
I thought you meant gay as in Happy!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

AF: "Hope he's not *happy* like most are around here"

SC: "Not that theres anything wrong with that"

See?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry. Our primary means of navigation in the Colorado mountains is pilotage and dead reckoning. In normally aspirated engines we're usually well below the surrounding terrain. VOR is completely unreliable (line of sight remember) and a direct GPS route can make you one with the earth, literally. Without good pilotage and dead reckoning skills, the terrain you can't out climb can be just across the pass that's only 20° left of the one you =should= have crossed.

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif That's something i would love to learn in my flight training, a little limited though with the mountain thing being in S.Florida. I always had a somewhat of a fear about flying out of FL becuase i never learned how to deal with High terrain, or icing conditions. When i think of this, it proves to me that having a PPL is truly a license to learn, i dont plan on abusing those privelages anytime soon, nor do i plan on flying into areas like the one forementioned with out getting instruction on that type of flying. Quick Q, do you think that some of the flight academies in s.FL are producing pilots lacking this knowledge of how to deal with terrain and/or ice , or anything you dont have to deal with in FL?
 
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Quick Q, do you think that some of the flight academies in s.FL are producing pilots lacking this knowledge of how to deal with terrain and/or ice , or anything you dont have to deal with in FL?

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In all honesty, yes. I'd have to agree with that statement. Do I know how to deal with icing conditions? Theoretically, yes. I hope I never find myself having to use that knowledge in an aircraft without de-icing equipment. Most of the academies probably take the stance of "we'll teach 'em how to fly, they'll learn the fancy stuff in ground school at the airline." Which I guess is TECHNICALLY okay. Personally, I want to know as much as I can going into ground school, or for that fact the interview for an airline. One of the reasons I'm doing extra stuff like spin training. If I ever go out to CO, I'd love to do some mountain flying with an instructor. An FAA class in icing probably wouldn't hurt, either.
 
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do you think that some of the flight academies in s.FL are producing pilots lacking this knowledge of how to deal with terrain and/or ice , or anything you don't have to deal with in FL?

[/ QUOTE ]I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Training tends to fit the conditions that exist where the training takes place. We don't come out of any certificate or rating knowing everything. Hopefully we've learned =how= to approach learning about new things. For example, even in Denver, the unique parts of mountain flying is =not= part of the private pilot training curriculum. It's not necessary to go into the mountains to learn how to fly here and many pilots never do. Those that decide its something they want, take mission-specific training.

That;s why just bout every pilot certificated is recall just another "license to learn"
 
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It's not necessary to go into the mountains to learn how to fly here and many pilots never do. Those that decide its something they want, take mission-specific training.

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of course, you could WANT to go up in the mountains and learn something and still not be able to, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Here in North Dakota we have the same lack of mountains problem. (Of course as an instructor it sure is nice to not worry about your solo xc's going into one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) We only have one airplane that is certified to fly into icing conditions, although most of us have accidentally picked up a little and know how to deal with it (ie keep your speed up on final, don't use flaps, tail stalls are backwards). We also are experienced with slick icy runways (those are horrible! especially teaching a private student)

Anyway, take one of us and put us in Florida and it would be the same thing. We get some T-storms up here, but none like in FL and there is usually plenty of warning because they form out in the western portion of the state so we've never been surprised by them.
 
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of course, you could WANT to go up in the mountains and learn something and still not be able to, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]If at first you don't succeed... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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We get some T-storms up here, but none like in FL and there is usually plenty of warning because they form out in the western portion of the state so we've never been surprised by them.

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Wait until you're flying near clouds and you look out and one has become a thunderstorm - right before you very eyes!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Wait until you're flying near clouds and you look out and one has become a thunderstorm - right before you very eyes!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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It's kinda cool seeing those suckers build up though. From clear clear skies to large cumulus clouded skies.
(Of course, not CBs, but still cool nonetheless)
 
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When i think of this, it proves to me that having a PPL is truly a license to learn

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"License to learn" -- how many of us certified pilots can attest to this, probably 90-95%, small percentage who might think they now know it all.

With x-countries, I usually have checkpoints 10-20nm apart. I have not really flown out of my area, or my comfort zone. Meaning I have never had to use two different charts, just about all of my flying is around:

South-central PA (just north of Hagerstown, MD when just flying around), went up to York
central MD -- HGR, MTN
DE -- EVY, 33N which I'm comfortable with, small state, I lived there for 21 years
no VA -- OKV, HEF

Checkpoints to me are pretty much to provide situational awareness, if I'm left of a checkpoint the chart says I should be to the right of to be on course, I don't really worry too much, or get stress about getting back on course.

I'm usually flying by dead reckoning/VOR, then use the chart for sit awareness, see what's around should something unfortunate happen

BUT BACK TO LICENSE TO LEARN

anyone notice I digress from the main point I was going to speak on?

See, I just did it right there

Crap, and again

Doh!

ANYHOW,

My instructor never instructed me on calculations while flying. Making sure groundspeed is what we estimated, or what's the change, and adjusting fuel.

He kinda went with the theory of--you're 116nm trip (to Dover, DE from MRB, WV--my long PPL training trip) should take you an hour and a half, roughly . . . you have four-to-five hours of fuel on board, (on this trip I always verify full fuel before going/any x-country really, and refuel before turning back) no matter how bad things get, your groundspeed/fuel consumption should not matter too much.
 
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He kinda went with the theory of--you're 116nm trip (to Dover, DE from MRB, WV--my long PPL training trip) should take you an hour and a half, roughly . . . you have four-to-five hours of fuel on board, (on this trip I always verify full fuel before going/any x-country really, and refuel before turning back) no matter how bad things get, your groundspeed/fuel consumption should not matter too much.

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That's a safe way to conduct a XC if you're well within your max endurance. However, try conducting a flight right up next to reserves, and tell me how comfortable ya are. I'm not a big fan of calculating actual groundspeed during a XC, but taking note of your ATE vs. your ETE is solid practice.
 
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