When it's time to move on...?

Screaming_Emu said:
You can change [your lack of degree].
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People continue to say this, so I'm going to be completely blunt:

1 - Higher education in the United States of America is a scam and a racket on the largest scale.
2 - Hiring requirements based on education are simply a very complex form of extortion that is condoned by society.
3 - The appearance of educational selectivity is a mechanism by which class stratification is maintained when other mechanisms are too obvious.
4 - I am certain that merely completing a course of study for a college degree would not improve me or my knowledge in a meaningful way.
4a - I have ample experience and evidence to support the above.
5 - My principles do not allow me to participate in such a system.
6 - I do not wish to work for a company who will not hire me because I lack a degree.
7 - I do not have "traditional" goals that must be met.
8 - If I get a job at a regional, and flying for said regional becomes a chore, I will move on.
9 - I didn't grow up dreaming of being an airline pilot. I grew up dreaming of being an airtanker pilot.
10 - I am convinced that points 1, 2 and 3 will become obvious in the very long term, if humanity survives the next century.

I don't mean any direct disrespect to you or anyone else who has a degree.

Honestly, if you are coming to the regionals without the goal of moving on to a bigger airline I'd say find another route. 121 is great and all, but as a career the regional side simply doesn't pay enough for a career worth of BS.
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I believe you. Everyone has motivations that are unique, however; my intuition suggests that I might enjoy it. And I'm not looking for the sort of "forever" job that a major is thought to represent, so that works.

Frankly, if I didn't feel 'locked in' to a $160k/year job working from home every day when I was working in tech, I certainly won't hesitate to bail to do something else if 121 flying doesn't strike my fancy. Alternatively, I may enjoy doing it for a few years... and by then, who knows what the market will be for anything. I'll have a few years of Alaska flying, a few years of airline flying, time flying acro, flight instructing ... I believe and trust that I'll be able to draw on the best of all of the above to make me a more well-rounded aviator wherever I end up.

So why not? Why shouldn't I try it and find out what it's like? I know that many things people complain about are things that I find I love, and vice versa.

That said, please understand that I do appreciate your thoughts—you possess a perspective and insight to the job that I absolutely lack, and I am grateful that you're sharing it in an attempt to help me. You very well could be exactly right, but I know me well enough to know that I won't regret trying it.

-Fox
 
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JDean3204 said:
Honestly come down to the lower 48 and upgrade here within the winter. PDX winters are great to fly in! Lots of ice and IMC. Out of the 300 hours I have accumulated 85 has been IMC. you will rack the night time up after september. Just a thought
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Believe me, I've thought about (temporarily going to the L48 before moving on) quite a lot. It was my plan right up until a few weeks ago.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
People continue to say this, so I'm going to be completely blunt:

1 - Higher education in the United States of America is a scam and a racket on the largest scale.
2 - Hiring requirements based on education are simply a very complex form of extortion that is condoned by society.
3 - The appearance of educational selectivity is a mechanism by which class stratification is maintained when other mechanisms are too obvious.
4 - I am certain that merely completing a course of study for a college degree would not improve me or my knowledge in a meaningful way.
4a - I have ample experience and evidence to support the above.
5 - My principals do not allow me to participate in such a system.
6 - I do not wish to work for a company who will not hire me because I lack a degree.
7 - I do not have "traditional" goals that must be met.
8 - If I get a job at a regional, and flying for said regional becomes a chore, I will move on.
9 - I didn't grow up dreaming of being an airline pilot. I grew up dreaming of being an airtanker pilot.
10 - I am convinced that points 1, 2 and 3 will become obvious in the very long term, if humanity survives the next century.

I don't mean any direct disrespect to you or anyone else who has a degree.



I believe you. Everyone has motivations that are unique, however; my intuition suggests that I might enjoy it. And I'm not looking for the sort of "forever" job that a major is thought to represent, so that works.

Frankly, if I didn't feel 'locked in' to a $160k/year job working from home every day when I was working in tech, I certainly won't hesitate to bail to do something else if 121 flying doesn't strike my fancy. Alternatively, I may enjoy doing it for a few years... and by then, who knows what the market will be for anything. I'll have a few years of Alaska flying, a few years of airline flying, time flying acro, flight instructing ... I believe and trust that I'll be able to draw on the best of all of the above to make me a more well-rounded aviator wherever I end up.

So why not? Why shouldn't I try it and find out what it's like? I know that many things people complain about are things that I find I love, and vice versa.

That said, please understand that I do appreciate your thoughts—you possess a perspective and insight to the job that I absolutely lack, and I am grateful that you're sharing it in an attempt to help me. You very well could be exactly right, but I know me well enough to know that I won't regret trying it.

-Fox
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K
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I know. Was climbing out of the hotel van.

You seem pretty dead set so I'm not going to convince you otherwise. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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Most likely it doesn't make sense because either you lack perspective about me or I lack perspective about the job. Most probably both, in some measure. I'm banking that it's more the former, and you are likely expecting it's more the latter.

For me, the thought of a stable life, home every night, and a stable long-term career that pays lots of money is ... well, frankly it's awful. It's the stuff nightmares are made out of. I'm very contrary in many ways, but it's not because I'm contrarian—I simply have values that differ heavily from most of humanity. I try to change humanity one worthwhile person at a time, and humanity tries to change me one person who cares at a time.

It's ok for you to disagree with me, and in my view it's ok for me to disagree with you. I welcome difference and debate, as comfortable as accord can be, and I like to try to inject entropy into stable worldviews, because I feel examining other points of view—even if you come back around to your original opinion—is crucial to breaking down mental structures if they're supported only by convention or, conversely, reinforcing them, if they're solidly grounded.

The long and short of it is that I suspect that, for a few years, anyway, flying for a regional will be a very educational and interesting experience.

If you don't mind me asking, if you were to imagine yourself "succeeding", what would it look like?

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
Most likely it doesn't make sense because either you lack perspective about me or I lack perspective about the job. Most probably both, in some measure. I'm banking that it's more the former, and you are likely expecting it's more the latter.

For me, the thought of a stable life, home every night, and a stable long-term career that pays lots of money is ... well, frankly it's awful. It's the stuff nightmares are made out of. I'm very contrary in many ways, but it's not because I'm contrarian—I simply have values that differ heavily from most of humanity. I try to change humanity one worthwhile person at a time, and humanity tries to change me one person who cares at a time.

It's ok for you to disagree with me, and in my view it's ok for me to disagree with you. I welcome difference and debate, as comfortable as accord can be, and I like to try to inject entropy into stable worldviews, because I feel examining other points of view—even if you come back around to your original opinion—is crucial to breaking down mental structures if they're supported only by convention or, conversely, reinforcing them, if they're solidly grounded.

The long and short of it is that I suspect that, for a few years, anyway, flying for a regional will be a very educational and interesting experience.

If you don't mind me asking, if you were to imagine yourself "succeeding", what would it look like?

-Fox
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I get that you're a little different. And I certainly don't mean that to sound as condescending as it probably does. That said I often feel that people who strive to be a little different tend to put themselves at a disadvantage by missing opportunity.

As for the degree part I agree that in some cases it can be a racket. But in others you can make it a worthwhile experience for not a ton of money.

I have to be a little short as we are boarding, but success for me is a meaningful job (which I have), that allows me the money and time to do what I want. Travel, drive fast cars, enjoy wine on the balcony with my wife and dogs, etc.

The degree might be stupid, but my desire to move to a company that allows for more of what I want in life is stronger than my desire to change the game. It's an investment.
 
Acrofox said:
People continue to say this, so I'm going to be completely blunt:

1 - Higher education in the United States of America is a scam and a racket on the largest scale.
2 - Hiring requirements based on education are simply a very complex form of extortion that is condoned by society.
3 - The appearance of educational selectivity is a mechanism by which class stratification is maintained when other mechanisms are too obvious.
4 - I am certain that merely completing a course of study for a college degree would not improve me or my knowledge in a meaningful way.
4a - I have ample experience and evidence to support the above.
5 - My principles do not allow me to participate in such a system.
6 - I do not wish to work for a company who will not hire me because I lack a degree.
7 - I do not have "traditional" goals that must be met.
8 - If I get a job at a regional, and flying for said regional becomes a chore, I will move on.
9 - I didn't grow up dreaming of being an airline pilot. I grew up dreaming of being an airtanker pilot.
10 - I am convinced that points 1, 2 and 3 will become obvious in the very long term, if humanity survives the next century.

I don't mean any direct disrespect to you or anyone else who has a degree.



I believe you. Everyone has motivations that are unique, however; my intuition suggests that I might enjoy it. And I'm not looking for the sort of "forever" job that a major is thought to represent, so that works.

Frankly, if I didn't feel 'locked in' to a $160k/year job working from home every day when I was working in tech, I certainly won't hesitate to bail to do something else if 121 flying doesn't strike my fancy. Alternatively, I may enjoy doing it for a few years... and by then, who knows what the market will be for anything. I'll have a few years of Alaska flying, a few years of airline flying, time flying acro, flight instructing ... I believe and trust that I'll be able to draw on the best of all of the above to make me a more well-rounded aviator wherever I end up.

So why not? Why shouldn't I try it and find out what it's like? I know that many things people complain about are things that I find I love, and vice versa.

That said, please understand that I do appreciate your thoughts—you possess a perspective and insight to the job that I absolutely lack, and I am grateful that you're sharing it in an attempt to help me. You very well could be exactly right, but I know me well enough to know that I won't regret trying it.

-Fox
Click to expand...


After reading this I have one question:
How is getting a (knee-jerk, window-dressing style solution) Congressionally-mandated ATP any different than sucking it up and getting a degree. If you feel so strongly about 1-3, I don't see why you'd be all anxious to get the ATP. You can have a long career in aviation without it.
 
Acrofox said:
People continue to say this, so I'm going to be completely blunt:

1 - Higher education in the United States of America is a scam and a racket on the largest scale.
2 - Hiring requirements based on education are simply a very complex form of extortion that is condoned by society.
3 - The appearance of educational selectivity is a mechanism by which class stratification is maintained when other mechanisms are too obvious.
4 - I am certain that merely completing a course of study for a college degree would not improve me or my knowledge in a meaningful way.
4a - I have ample experience and evidence to support the above.
5 - My principles do not allow me to participate in such a system.
6 - I do not wish to work for a company who will not hire me because I lack a degree.
7 - I do not have "traditional" goals that must be met.
8 - If I get a job at a regional, and flying for said regional becomes a chore, I will move on.
9 - I didn't grow up dreaming of being an airline pilot. I grew up dreaming of being an airtanker pilot.
10 - I am convinced that points 1, 2 and 3 will become obvious in the very long term, if humanity survives the next century.

I don't mean any direct disrespect to you or anyone else who has a degree.


-Fox
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Like it or not, earning an undergraduate degree is the price of entry for many positions in many industries. And a graduate degree is what allows one to advance in many cases. These are the rules that much of U.S. industry plays by. Your position boils down to "I don't like the rules, so I refuse to play." That is a terribly short-sighted position, because it means you are ceding control of many of your career options to others. Why would you do that, when all it takes is sucking it up for a few years so you can have more paths open to you, whether they are in aviation or in other industries?
 
Plata said:
Like it or not, earning an undergraduate degree is the price of entry for many positions in many industries. And a graduate degree is what allows one to advance in many cases. These are the rules that much of U.S. industry plays by. Your position boils down to "I don't like the rules, so I refuse to play." That is a terribly short-sighted position, because it means you are ceding control of many of your career options to others. Why would you do that, when all it takes is sucking it up for a few years so you can have more paths open to you, whether they are in aviation or in other industries?
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You answered your own question.

Fox has pretty clearly states that it's not a game he wants to play, and he's aware of the parameters and consequences of that decision.
 
If you can make $60-100k as a regional guy long term, I really don't understand people saying you "can't survive the pay".

Do what you wanna do!
 
Lets be honest....a degree is not a huge deal. Probably wont even be a requirement for the majors in the next few years....I mean you could go to Piedmont and flow to American without a degree. What makes you think they're going to keep that obstacle up for much longer?
 
NewYorkophile said:
If you can make $60-100k as a regional guy long term, I really don't understand people saying you "can't survive the pay".

Do what you wanna do!
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*If is the key word.

When I got hired in '07 I thought "This is spectacular. Even if things go to crap I'll be a captain in a couple years and will make close to $100k a few years after I upgrade."

This year I hit 8th year FO pay, upgrade isn't anywhere in sight, and I cleared 50k last year...barely...and that's by working my ass off.

I know things are "different" at most every other regional. But that can change in a second. Tethering yourself to a regional for your career is foolish if you can easily have other options.
 
I logged a great deal of night flight hours ferrying between job sites all across the US (CONUS and a little Canada) flying for Landcare Aviation (a Pictometry vendor with over 20 aircraft). Lots of jobs available, especially with your TT, but most of the time is in the late fall to spring ("leaf off"'.)
 
I pretty much agree with him and I work at a public college. That said, I do have a 2 year degree (which is almost worthless btw), and if the requirement is still standing when/if I try to go to the airlines, I'll just do one of those online degrees like TESC that credit your flight ratings and hammer out the rest, check the box and forget it. It will be another worthless degree and largely a waste of time but it's the least painful way I can think of.
 
Acrofox said:
I don't quite meet ATP mins yet, and I have an ugly 50-hour gap in night before I'd meet 135 IFR mins.

Around 1200tt, 600 Alaska / 135 PIC, 150 turbine (All 208 PIC, for what little that's worth)... bit less than 100 instrument (almost all sim inst), and ~60 multi (yay i r special). Currently flying 208s (AK) VFR year round for a scheduled 135 airline in AK, but pretty sure I don't want to go out west.

Most likely I'll stick it out here until I hit ATP, but I'm looking for a secondary exit strategy in case the wheels fall off completely before I'm at ATP mins., and I was curious if anyone had any ideas I hadn't considered.

Current "end-game" (read: until it's no longer fun) goal is SkyWest.

Leaving Alaska will break what's left of my heart, but that's life.

@Roger Roger (especially), @ppragman and @Capt. Chaos probably understand why.

Anyway, I'm not really expecting much in the way of replies to this. Just tossing it out as a "feeler", just in case someone has some idea I don't.

-Fox
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Just stick it out 'til October-ish and fly after 4 in the afternoon. You'll get night hours most ricki tick. More than you ever wanted. If you like the Midwest, PM me.
 
Acrofox said:
People continue to say this, so I'm going to be completely blunt:

1 - Higher education in the United States of America is a scam and a racket on the largest scale.
2 - Hiring requirements based on education are simply a very complex form of extortion that is condoned by society.
3 - The appearance of educational selectivity is a mechanism by which class stratification is maintained when other mechanisms are too obvious.
4 - I am certain that merely completing a course of study for a college degree would not improve me or my knowledge in a meaningful way.
4a - I have ample experience and evidence to support the above.
5 - My principles do not allow me to participate in such a system.
6 - I do not wish to work for a company who will not hire me because I lack a degree.
7 - I do not have "traditional" goals that must be met.
8 - If I get a job at a regional, and flying for said regional becomes a chore, I will move on.
9 - I didn't grow up dreaming of being an airline pilot. I grew up dreaming of being an airtanker pilot.
10 - I am convinced that points 1, 2 and 3 will become obvious in the very long term, if humanity survives the next century.

-Fox
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Nice. I hope this goes viral. I've garnered several of those degrees and fully understanding their vacuity as anything much more than a barrier to entry for those intelligent people not possessing them. I only wish more folks could see what you see... and act accordingly.
 
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, but so is the restricted radio telephone license, but gotta get it in many cases. :)

Love it or hate it, but when the recruiter asks about it at a job fair and a person launches into a soliloquy about the utility of a degree, they're probably just going to say. "Ahh, ok. Next!"
 
Derg said:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah, but so is the restricted radio telephone license, but gotta get it in many cases. :)

Love it or hate it, but when the recruiter asks about it at a job fair and a person launches into a soliloquy about the utility of a degree, they're probably just going to say. "Ahh, ok. Next!"
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He'll probably love it if the recruiter says "next!" and there is nobody else around. I'm not saying that will happen soon, or ever, but where are all these people with 4 year degrees, at least 1500 hrs, and an ATP going to come from after a certain point? You can't just get a massive loan for flight training anymore, tuition just about everywhere has gone beyond ridiculous, and for almost the last 10 years many of us youngins' either made a little money without a degree or made barista money with a degree. Time will tell...
What is interesting, is that in the helicopter side of the industry, nobody gives a flying fokker about degrees (or HS diplomas from what I've seen) but there is very little demand for pilots compared to fixed wing. It makes me wonder if it has something to do with the military pilot requirements in each industry. You can go "High School to Flight School" in the Army, no degree, and land decent paying job as a civilian without ever taking "History of Contemporary TV."
 
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Acrofox said:
I will never go to a major, because I lack a degree... but I think I want to try the 'minors' out.
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My shop, the '5th biggest airline in the country', does not require a college degree. Might be worth a look see - I like it there a lot. Great people, great flying. Especially if you like island red-eyes!
 
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