When does an instrument approach end?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Is that new?

I doubt it.

Approach clears for approaches not traffic patterns. They will instruct a circle to land at a towered airport because the Tower controls the flow of traffic and the assignment of the active runway. No one does that at a nontowered airport.

OTOH, if Approach asks you which approach you are going to use at a non-towered airport, and you say "GPS 13, circle to 31," I don't doubt some controllers will clear you for it. It sure beats taking the time to correct you, although I suspect most would simple say, cleared for the GPS 13.".

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Okay, I'll give the specifics that led to this question.

IFR Cessna conducting an ILS approach to RY28 in VMC, full stop. Requests circle to RY31 which was the wind-favored runway (yes our crossing runway is only 30 degrees different, dumb, I know). Circles to 31, approach is unstable and they come in too high and go around. In this situation they canceled IFR and joined the pattern to land. But what if they hadn't canceled, what kind of instructions would a pilot expect? Instructions to continue circling and try again, or something else. The published missed is not exactly available in this case.

From the tower, I would ask the pilot if they wanted to continue circling (still providing IFR separation), or if they'd like to go back to approach for resequencing. In the latter case I would have to get alternative instructions from approach. Then here is another big, but unlike what if. What happens if you start your circle and go NORDO and botch the landing. Would we expect you to fly the published missed (which doesn't apply) or continue in VMC and land.

Non-towered airports are one in, one out, so you are always entitled to a publish missed at an uncontrolled airport. The controller is protecting for it regardless.

My take on Nontowered: You are IFR and protected until you cancel. You are cleared for the approach, not a specific runway. Assuming no circling restrictions, if you can land straight in, do it; if you need to circle, do that. If you need to go around and can still circle without busting circling minimums, I don't see an issue with doing so.

My take on Towered is pretty much the same except for the obvious difference - someone with instructions. Report the go around and ATC will tell you what they want you to do. "Make left traffic." "Contact Approach on the missed." "Fly heading 230; contact Approach." Some other alternate instructions. Prefer to be proactive (I would)? "Going around. Would like to stay in the pattern for another try."

I still don't understand the bold part. From a pilot standpoint, operating under IFR, I am cleared to fly the published missed unless ATC gives me alternate missed instructions.

Edit to add: If I lose comms in this situation - I am now visual and the alternative is to go back into the clouds, NORDO, I'm treating it as an emergency.

 

[NovemberEcho]

If the plate has circling mins, I’m clearing you for the circle tower or no.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1809/05600R36.PDF

And btw, by “circle approach instructions” I think it’s talking about Approach can’t say circle north to rwy 31, or say when to start your circle, not that you can’t be cleared for a circling approach. Only when there’s a tower can we give you instructions on HOW to circle.

 

[Cptnchia]

My .02. The circle is a visual maneuver. At a non towered field, APP or Center will clear you for whatever the IAP is. The visual part is on the pilot. If you don’t have a visual by the MAP , or you lose visual during the circle, you execute the missed. As for IFR, until you cancel, at a non towered, or land at a towered airport, you’re still on a flight plan.

 

[greg1016]

If the plate has circling mins, I’m clearing you for the circle tower or no.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1809/05600R36.PDF

And btw, by “circle approach instructions” I think it’s talking about Approach can’t say circle north to rwy 31, or say when to start your circle, not that you can’t be cleared for a circling approach. Only when there’s a tower can we give you instructions on HOW to circle.

I agree, it doesn't mean a pilot can't circle, it just means the approach is to the airport instead of the runway. And also it seems we are in agreement, if the weather is above circling mins from the tower I can clear a pilot who botched a landing or otherwise went around to circle back and try again (traffic permitting) instead of going back to approach for resequencing.

 

[Lenny Smith]

My .02. The circle is a visual maneuver. At a non towered field, APP or Center will clear you for whatever the IAP is. The visual part is on the pilot. If you don’t have a visual by the MAP , or you lose visual during the circle, you execute the missed. As for IFR, until you cancel, at a non towered, or land at a towered airport, you’re still on a flight plan.

FINALLY, somebody that understands....................I was getting nauseas.

 

[averettpilot]

WWJD

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

An instrument approach always ends in the hold at the end of the missed approach procedure. If you look at it that way you'll never get caught out on a checkride.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

An instrument approach always ends in the hold at the end of the missed approach procedure. If you look at it that way you'll never get caught out on a checkride.

“Go around, maintain 1600*.”

* published altitude 2600.



But yeah...in theory.

 

[MikeD]

Best part of helicopter IFR, no circling crap. Every approach that has straight in mins, is flown to straight in mins. No need for circling mins, unless they are the only mins for the approach. From there, proceed directly to wherever I'm cleared to (towered) or need to go (untowered) on the airfield and land into the wind in whatever direction I need to.

 

[Stinger]

Best part of helicopter IFR, no circling crap. Every approach that has straight in mins, is flown to straight in mins. No need for circling mins, unless they are the only mins for the approach. From there, proceed directly to wherever I'm cleared to (towered) or need to go (untowered) on the airfield and land into the wind in whatever direction I need to.

I've never thought about circling minimums in relation to helicopters before. But I guess that makes sense.

 

[MikeD]

I've never thought about circling minimums in relation to helicopters before. But I guess that makes sense.

It's because, as you well know, the circling mins exist to provide obstacle clearance for the TERPs protected lateral distance provided to airplanes per their approach Category. As a helo, I'm not utilizing that circling airspace.....not flying a pattern to land, hence, I can make a ILS to Runway 9 for example, even though Runway 18 may be the duty runway at the time, and I break out at straight in mins and if I'm a light helo, air taxi over to the ramp, pad, taxiway, wherever. Or if a medium/large wheeled helo with a lot of downwash, air/hover taxi to the designated runway or taxiway, turn into the wind in place, and land. So it really makes instrument approaches easier in terms of the landing phase of the final segment.

In the same way, for non precision approaches, VDPs don't apply to helicopters. Since I can level off at an MDA, and drive forward all the way past the VDP, still spot the airport/runway all the way up to the Missed approach point, and still maneuver down to land, straight/turning, etc. I don't need the glidepath that the VDP gives, because I'm always in a "position to land" all the way up to the MAP, whereas airplanes aren't.

So there's some convenient things helos don't have to worry about as it comes to instrument approach work, that airplanes have to.

 

[killbilly]

It's because, as you well know, the circling mins exist to provide obstacle clearance for the TERPs protected lateral distance provided to airplanes per their approach Category. As a helo, I'm not utilizing that circling airspace.....not flying a pattern to land, hence, I can make a ILS to Runway 9 for example, even though Runway 18 may be the duty runway at the time, and I break out at straight in mins and if I'm a light helo, air taxi over to the ramp, pad, taxiway, wherever. Or if a medium/large wheeled helo with a lot of downwash, air/hover taxi to the designated runway or taxiway, turn into the wind in place, and land. So it really makes instrument approaches easier in terms of the landing phase of the final segment.

In the same way, for non precision approaches, VDPs don't apply to helicopters. Since I can level off at an MDA, and drive forward all the way past the VDP, still spot the airport/runway all the way up to the Missed approach point, and still maneuver down to land, straight/turning, etc. I don't need the glidepath that the VDP gives, because I'm always in a "position to land" all the way up to the MAP, whereas airplanes aren't.

So there's some convenient things helos don't have to worry about as it comes to instrument approach work, that airplanes have to.

Slight derail...

In general, how much helo flying is done IMC outside of the military/law enforcement realm?

I spend a lot of time at airports, often when ceilings are low, and I cannot recall ever seeing a helo break out of the clouds when the field is IFR on an approach. I know helicopter IFR is a thing (and I'm still mystified how you operate controls when you need both hands and feet to fly) I'm just really in the dark about how it's done and how much of it is really IMC.

 

[NovemberEcho]

In general, how much helo flying is done IMC outside of the military/law enforcement realm?

Quite a bit. We also get a lot who shoot the ILS at TEB hoping to break out under the clouds and go to the city

 

[MikeD]

Slight derail...

In general, how much helo flying is done IMC outside of the military/law enforcement realm?

I spend a lot of time at airports, often when ceilings are low, and I cannot recall ever seeing a helo break out of the clouds when the field is IFR on an approach. I know helicopter IFR is a thing (and I'm still mystified how you operate controls when you need both hands and feet to fly) I'm just really in the dark about how it's done and how much of it is really IMC.

Not many light helos, but larger ones do so often, your corporate helos, and other commercial ones.

It's not difficult at all. With frictioned controls, there's a lot of hands off you can do to do stuff while flying.

 

[Roger Roger]

Not many light helos, but larger ones do so often, your corporate helos, and other commercial ones.

It's not difficult at all. With frictioned controls, there's a lot of hands off you can do to do stuff while flying.

Well, and anything IFR for hire is going to require either an autopilot or a second pilot isn’t it?

 

[MikeD]

Well, and anything IFR for hire is going to require either an autopilot or a second pilot isn’t it?

Yes. There are some single pilot IFR HEMS helos, but they have autopilot in lieu of. And are flying things like EC-135 and bigger.....not the common light helos.

 

[Roger Roger]

Yes. There are some single pilot IFR HEMS helos, but they have autopilot in lieu of. And are flying things like EC-135 and bigger.....not the common light helos.

Right. Point being, there’s not a lot of the guys flying IFR in helos that are trying to juggle hand flying, managing systems, ATC comms, and their approach plates/EFBs.

The program I fly fixed-wing for runs a lot of IFR helos around Puget Sound, I’d love to see them doing their thing. I also wish my old floatplane operator could get IFR approaches built to some of their water lanes the way helos have them to hospitals etc...

 

[MikeD]

Right. Point being, there’s not a lot of the guys flying IFR in helos that are trying to juggle hand flying, managing systems, ATC comms, and their approach plates/EFBs.

The program I fly fixed-wing for runs a lot of IFR helos around Puget Sound, I’d love to see them doing their thing. I also wish my old floatplane operator could get IFR approaches built to some of their water lanes the way helos have them to hospitals etc...

There isn't that many indeed. As an aside though, IFR single pilot wth no autopilot in a helo isn't that difficult. You set some friction on the collective and cyclic, and you can set them where you want them and be able to set stuff, open charts, etc, just fine. It's really not that difficult......IF, the pilot keeps some practice in doing so. And that is where the kicker comes, as too many pilots don't, or the company provides little opportunity for them to get practice time.

I shoot practice approaches all the time, just to keep the approach feel and flow going and keep it easy. But many helo pilots don't.

 

[z987k]

Well, and anything IFR for hire is going to require either an autopilot or a second pilot isn’t it?

Aren't 2 engines required for for hire helo IFR as well?
That's what I thought the big limiting factor always was - cost.