When did they shut down opposite direction approaches?
- Thread starter Ajax
- Start date
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
I was denied landing the opposite runway tonight, whilst flying as a lifeguard. The controller was falling all over himself to apologize. But, I mean, honestly, because some heavy iron drivers got a little too close in the flight levels, I can't land the "wrong way" in 3 knot winds so I can get a sick kid to the hospital two minutes faster? Your tax dollars at work.
If you flew that PC-12 like you did the moo, you would have gotten the kid to the hospital two minutes early.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
If you flew that PC-12 like you did the moo, you would have gotten the kid to the hospital two minutes early.
TWO minutes early? Try TWENTY. I mean, sure, the cabin is way too small and noise is horrific, but when lives are On The Line, you want the Rice Rocket.
TWO minutes early? Try TWENTY. I mean, sure, the cabin is way too small and noise is horrific, but when lives are On The Line, you want the Rice Rocket.
Don't want to scare the crap out of the sick kids! Although there are plenty of moos with poop stains in the seats already.
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
Mike that procedure has been around for years but it has to be covered in a LOA with the tracon and tower, in Chicago we have this in the LOAs with all our class D towers . and the IFR seperation is the spaceing on final part, once the aircraft misses the approach this is no more seperation (well unless the controller approves the published missed approach than you are responsible for seperation till the MA fix)
Corporate Pilot
Well-Known Member
ATCSCC ADVZY 025 DCC 08/12/2012 - OPPOSITE DIRECTION OPERATIONS
MESSAGE:
THE FACILITIES LISTED BELOW BY THREE LETTER IDENTIFIER HAVE
SUBMITTED THEIR PROCEDURAL APPLICATION AND HAVE BEEN APPROVED FOR
RESUMPTION OF OPPOSITE DIRECTION OPERATIONS.
APPROVAL OF OPPOSITE DIRECTION OPERATIONS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE
PROCEDURE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED LOCALLY DUE TO THE ASSOCIATED
TRAINING. ANY QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE LOCAL FACILITY.
PREVIOUSLY APPROVED: ABE ABQ ACK ACY AEX AFW AGS ALB AMA ASE AUS AVP
AZO BFI BGM BGR BIS BNA BOI BTV BZN CAE CHS CID CKB CLT CMH DCA DLH
DSM ERI EVV EWR FAI FAR GPI GTF HLN HPN HTS IDA ISO ISP ITO JAC JNU
JQF LAS LFT LGA LNK MBS MDT MFD MIA MLI MSN MSO MSP OGD OMA ORD PAE
PBI PIH PIT PVD PVU ROA RDU SAN SAV SEA SLC SNA SUN SUX SYR TLH TOL
TPA TWF TYR TYS
NEWLY APPROVED: BRO CRP HRL LKN MFE
MESSAGE:
THE FACILITIES LISTED BELOW BY THREE LETTER IDENTIFIER HAVE
SUBMITTED THEIR PROCEDURAL APPLICATION AND HAVE BEEN APPROVED FOR
RESUMPTION OF OPPOSITE DIRECTION OPERATIONS.
APPROVAL OF OPPOSITE DIRECTION OPERATIONS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE
PROCEDURE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED LOCALLY DUE TO THE ASSOCIATED
TRAINING. ANY QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE LOCAL FACILITY.
PREVIOUSLY APPROVED: ABE ABQ ACK ACY AEX AFW AGS ALB AMA ASE AUS AVP
AZO BFI BGM BGR BIS BNA BOI BTV BZN CAE CHS CID CKB CLT CMH DCA DLH
DSM ERI EVV EWR FAI FAR GPI GTF HLN HPN HTS IDA ISO ISP ITO JAC JNU
JQF LAS LFT LGA LNK MBS MDT MFD MIA MLI MSN MSO MSP OGD OMA ORD PAE
PBI PIH PIT PVD PVU ROA RDU SAN SAV SEA SLC SNA SUN SUX SYR TLH TOL
TPA TWF TYR TYS
NEWLY APPROVED: BRO CRP HRL LKN MFE
staledog
Well-Known Member
Now that is really freaking stupid.
Stinger
Well-Known Member
You got a link for this? I'm not finding it.
EDIT: Nevermind. http://www.fly.faa.gov/adv/adv_othe...OSITE+DIRECTION+OPERATIONS&titleDate=08/13/12
Ahh...much appreciated for the info! That makes sense.
As an aside, do you remember ASLAR hi-approach procedures?
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
yea but didnt do them much being that both my bases we A-10s and the hogs didnt do many of those. though did get to see some SFO approaches with the F-106s (thats when they could get one airborne).
Hooha
Well-Known Member
Heard from a controller this morning that there were "several incidents" that led to this reaction, and the "closest one hasn't hit the news, yet." This was, of course, after he told us he couldn't comment on the matter.
My first thought is to investigate and then deal with the controller. The only way two aircraft in an IFR environment under atc control can be on a collision course has to be the fault of the controller.
So lets say that aircraft "A" is cleared for the approach. While he is shooting the approach the local tower turns the airport around. Does the local controller do this without telling the approach controller? Does the tower warn the approach controller a few minutes before he turns the airport around so that the approach controller can begin vectoring aircraft for the opposite runway and let aircraft already cleared for the approach finish and land? No matter how the scenario is played out it comes down to the controllers made a mistake. Seems like the emphasis of the story is on the procedure and not the actions of the controllers. Controllers are human and they make mistakes as we all do but in this case it's pretty simple.
So forget about turning the airport around while in the middle of an approach. Lets say you're shooting practice approaches and the controller clears you for an approach that goes in the opposite direction of departing traffic. The only way two aircraft can be on a collision course has to be attributed to the controllers. When he cleared you for the approach it means that the approach path is clear of all traffic and it's yours to use all the way down to the landing zone. If someone is departing in the opposite direction then the controller isn't doing his job. The departing aircraft got permission to take off from the local tower who got permission to release him from the same person who gave the inbound aircraft his approach clearance.
For the record, I have NEVER requested an approach in the opposite direction of departing traffic and not had to wait while the controller talks to the local tower to approve it. To me the procedures seem solid and don't need to be changed but it is what it is. If it reduces accidents then it's fine but it won't stop controllers from making mistakes. If a controller can't keep two airplanes from running into each other head-on then changing a procedure isn't going to help.
Sol Rosenburg
Well-Known Member
I just requested it tonight in Tulsa and got denied ( I forgot about the new "rule"), I was the only plane in the charlie at the time. So efficient.
Prino
Well-Known Member
The only way 2 aircraft in an ifr environment can be on a collision course is the controllers fault? Please, if pilots were perfect then there wouldn't be a need for controllers. Pilots make mistakes just like controllers. It's j more often than not we let things go because we don't want to deal with it more of a no harm no foul thing. Whos fault is it when a controller clears an a/c for an approach and they go on the wrong approach?
As for switching runways, normally there is coordination between the supe/cic (controller in charge). Controllers don't just start arbitrarily launching airplanes without telling the approach control.
Neither aircraft were ever on a collision course.
Say again? You might want to rethink this.
Pilots muck up clearances all the time, and it's not always caught by the controller. The controller has multiple aircraft to manage, while pilot who makes an error has only one to manage: his.
That broadbrush statement of yours has very little basis of fact.
Prino
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how Other airports are doing things, but The guidance I was given is that opposite direction requests MAY be honored as long as there is no other aircraft in the area. More than likely the controller was too lazy to work it out
Sol Rosenburg
Well-Known Member
the word prohibited was used so it didn't seem like he could do anything about it
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
If you flew that PC-12 like you did the moo, you would have gotten the kid to the hospital two minutes early.
Best of JetCareers. Thank you for the laugh.TWO minutes early? Try TWENTY. I mean, sure, the cabin is way too small and noise is horrific, but when lives are On The Line, you want the Rice Rocket.
Hooha
Well-Known Member
It was too broad of a statement and yes we all make mistakes. I have very little knowledge of the inner workings of tracons and control towers other than what I've been exposed to while flying. I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the reasoning behind doing away with opposite direction approaches. If a pilot makes a mistake after he gets a clearance and then shoots the wrong approach it's somewhat irrelevant if it's an opposite direction approach as he's a danger to everyone in the area.
What seems more important is that when an aircraft receives an ifr clearance for takeoff that he can be somewhat confident that the controller actually looked at the departure course to make sure that someone isn't coming at him in the opposite direction. You're right though, when the controller is busy he can make mistakes.
