When a carrier "holds itself out"...
- Thread starter HumbleSiPilot77
- Start date
HumbleSiPilot77
Well-Known Member
Even if he paid his pro-rata share and was willing to join the vacation, he still can not own the plane? Or either or?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
deadpixel
Well-Known Member
First problem would be trying to find the darn place through all that smog
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
That's gonna depend how you explain it during a ramp check.
I don't think there's a definition on how long you need to know someone to call them friends. 
HumbleSiPilot77
Well-Known Member
Good thing I am not trying to become a lawyer like my dad! Dang this is confusing. I thought second scenario fit the definition of "private carriage" were you can own the plane and deliver services to long term basis customers.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
I get an email like this about twice a week. I always figure it's the FAA trying to entrap me. Here is today's version.
Sun 3/3/2013 8:17 AM
Dear Pilot,
I found your website via Googling "death valley flying". I am 6' 0" at 180 lbs in fine phys shape and love Death Valley making one or two ground trips a year to explore.
How much would you charge to fly me all around Death Valley for about two hours. I'd like to fly over the Owl's Head Mountains, Black Mountains - Dante's View, Zabriskie Point, Telescope Peak and Panamint City via Johnson Canyon, Hunter Mountain, Saline Valley, The Race Track, Grapevine Mountains and Furnace Creek.
I could meet you at Furnace Creek Air Strip or maybe your home airport?
If you are not available or wish not to do this, any recommendations for other flying services?
I am not a pilot but have been up several times in small private planes like yours.
Thank you,
Steven Clark
Park City, Utah
Sun 3/3/2013 8:17 AM
Dear Pilot,
I found your website via Googling "death valley flying". I am 6' 0" at 180 lbs in fine phys shape and love Death Valley making one or two ground trips a year to explore.
How much would you charge to fly me all around Death Valley for about two hours. I'd like to fly over the Owl's Head Mountains, Black Mountains - Dante's View, Zabriskie Point, Telescope Peak and Panamint City via Johnson Canyon, Hunter Mountain, Saline Valley, The Race Track, Grapevine Mountains and Furnace Creek.
I could meet you at Furnace Creek Air Strip or maybe your home airport?
If you are not available or wish not to do this, any recommendations for other flying services?
I am not a pilot but have been up several times in small private planes like yours.
Thank you,
Steven Clark
Park City, Utah
HumbleSiPilot77
Well-Known Member
Aerial sightseeing? He brings/rents the aircraft? Then you'd only provide pilot services?!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I'll admit, I'm rusty and was never really good at teaching this to begin with. Private carriage is way to gray for my level of ignorance on it. I wouldn't touch any of it personally.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Since he's not a pilot he's not bringing an aircraft and there isn't an FBO within 50 miles of Furnace Creek.
If you think it's safe... Steven Clark <stevenclark1970@gmail.com>
HumbleSiPilot77
Well-Known Member
scott_l
Well-Known Member
Best place to look is Part 119 where it spells out what requires a operating certificate. I made myself a list just to make sense of it of what does and does not require operating certificates. AC 120-12A is only a piece of the commercial privileges puzzle. If all else fails remember if you provide plane+pilot and are compensated(even just for flight time) you are not legal to fly it.
z987k
Well-Known Member
That's not true. All the things listed in 119.1, I can provide myself and an airplane for. Even be compensated.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I believe what he is asking for is now governed under part 136. Now if he wanted you to take him to those places to look for game for a hunting trip......
rframe
pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I think the main thing we're looking at is private carriage of people/cargo. Other than the specific things listed, I wouldn't touch the weird scenarios like scenario 2 in the original post with a 10 foot pole. I'm not going to put forth the effort at the moment, and it's probably not true,(
) but I think the FAA considers just people knowing you have a pilot certificate as holding out.I think the main thing we're looking at is private carriage of people/cargo. Other than the specific things listed, I wouldn't touch the weird scenarios like scenario 2 in the original post with a 10 foot pole. I'm not going to put forth the effort at the moment, and it's probably not true,(
With the amount of information given in the OP, I'd agree about the vacation scenario being hard to answer, but if information were provided as to where the airplane being used for the flight came from, it would be pretty straightforward.
If the aircraft comes from someone who isn't the pilot (the parents own it, or obtain it from another source), the flight is completely legal since the airplane and pilot came from two separate sources and no holding out took place.
However, if the pilot owns the aircraft (or agrees to provide/rent one as part of the deal), the flight is illegal because the pilot has "operational control" of the aircraft, which requires a part 135 certificate for a flight from point A to B.
If it helps the OP (or anyone else), the case that normally gets cited when "operational control" gets brought up is Administrator v.. Davis: http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4255.pdf and there's a separate case (Administrator v. Hagerty) http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3549.pdf that makes it clear a pilot can't avoid being busted for violating part 135 regs by simply not asking questions about a given flight.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
Best running joke in the history of ever.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Game? Hunting? Where? There's a reason they call it Death Valley.