what's wrong with great lakes?
- Thread starter dpilot83
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mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
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True, but 16-18 hour days several days a week when you only get paid for about 8 tends to wear ya down quick, I don't care how fast the upgrades are.
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Hey, I do those days at WOE, even when I only get paid for 3 or 4!
Really, it wouldn't bother me at all! With upgrades like that, you can find yourself sitting at a much better company alot sooner than you could by working at a "nice" company with "good" pay.
[ QUOTE ]
True, but 16-18 hour days several days a week when you only get paid for about 8 tends to wear ya down quick, I don't care how fast the upgrades are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, I do those days at WOE, even when I only get paid for 3 or 4!
Really, it wouldn't bother me at all! With upgrades like that, you can find yourself sitting at a much better company alot sooner than you could by working at a "nice" company with "good" pay.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
Be difference, IMO, between CFIing (hanging out open to close and only getting paid 3-4 hours) and flying for a regional (hoping from airport to airport for 16 hours and only getting paid for 8). As a CFI, you're there to generate business for yourself. As an FO/Captain, I see it as a poor mismanagement of assets by the airline. If you've got guys sitting in an airport for 6-8 hours instead of flying a leg, you probably have a lot more costs as far as training, uniforms, benefits, etc than you need. As a CFI, you can hang out for a while, then take your own car home to your own bed with your family. As a pilot for an airline, you might have a van ride to a hotel ahead of you after such a long day, and then only the minimum 8 hours between duty times (ie 4-6 hours of actual rest).
I see what you're saying, Lloyd. It's just my personal opinion that I don't feel pilots should be taken advantage of by their airline AND get paid wages that low for the sake of a quick upgrade and the hope that you can get a job at a better company sooner.
Be difference, IMO, between CFIing (hanging out open to close and only getting paid 3-4 hours) and flying for a regional (hoping from airport to airport for 16 hours and only getting paid for 8). As a CFI, you're there to generate business for yourself. As an FO/Captain, I see it as a poor mismanagement of assets by the airline. If you've got guys sitting in an airport for 6-8 hours instead of flying a leg, you probably have a lot more costs as far as training, uniforms, benefits, etc than you need. As a CFI, you can hang out for a while, then take your own car home to your own bed with your family. As a pilot for an airline, you might have a van ride to a hotel ahead of you after such a long day, and then only the minimum 8 hours between duty times (ie 4-6 hours of actual rest).
I see what you're saying, Lloyd. It's just my personal opinion that I don't feel pilots should be taken advantage of by their airline AND get paid wages that low for the sake of a quick upgrade and the hope that you can get a job at a better company sooner.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
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I see what you're saying, Lloyd. It's just my personal opinion that I don't feel pilots should be taken advantage of by their airline AND get paid wages that low for the sake of a quick upgrade and the hope that you can get a job at a better company sooner.
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Point taken, without a doubt!
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I see what you're saying, Lloyd. It's just my personal opinion that I don't feel pilots should be taken advantage of by their airline AND get paid wages that low for the sake of a quick upgrade and the hope that you can get a job at a better company sooner.
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Point taken, without a doubt!
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
I don't have time to list out expenditures, but I'm willing to bet that it costs you money to be a FO with Great Lakes.
Consider loan payments (if you have them), food on the road, time spent making $1 an hour, being away from home/family, time with crew, do they even have bennies?, etc.
All for $15 an hour.
Granted I didn't get into this profession for money, but damn, PROFESSIONAL pilot's deserve to make a decent living.
I don't have time to list out expenditures, but I'm willing to bet that it costs you money to be a FO with Great Lakes.
Consider loan payments (if you have them), food on the road, time spent making $1 an hour, being away from home/family, time with crew, do they even have bennies?, etc.
All for $15 an hour.
Granted I didn't get into this profession for money, but damn, PROFESSIONAL pilot's deserve to make a decent living.
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
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I heard Lakes only provides Jepp plates for the capt. So if the F/O wants some, he/she has to buy there own. Can anyone confirm this?
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True. It's because FOs at lakes aren't allowed to fly instrument approaches.
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I heard Lakes only provides Jepp plates for the capt. So if the F/O wants some, he/she has to buy there own. Can anyone confirm this?
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True. It's because FOs at lakes aren't allowed to fly instrument approaches.
JDE
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
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...It's all a matter of perspective.
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Sure the pay sucks, but the pay elsewhere flying the same equipment isn't much better. Do I think professional pilots deserve more money? Absolutely, but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon...in the airlines at least. So I've decided you can do two things. Sit around waiting for the industry to get better and bitch about it, or just put up with the crap for a short period of time and move on to a better job. Try to find the positive in everything. Here are some positives I've found with Lakes:
1. Experience with these WX conditions:
* Hot & high during summer
* Midwest thunderstorms during summer
* Snow/Ice storms during winter
* IFR Mountain flying
2. Hand flying the entire time = all hand flown approaches = makes you a better pilot
3. Doing all those hand flown approachs in weather conditions listed above and into less than "large" airports. (When's the last time you flew an NDB approach to minimums at night and had to circle?)
For me personally I would like the experience operating under these conditions. Why? It'll make me a better pilot down the road when I have that cushy job flying a G-V into Eagle.
[ QUOTE ]
...It's all a matter of perspective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure the pay sucks, but the pay elsewhere flying the same equipment isn't much better. Do I think professional pilots deserve more money? Absolutely, but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon...in the airlines at least. So I've decided you can do two things. Sit around waiting for the industry to get better and bitch about it, or just put up with the crap for a short period of time and move on to a better job. Try to find the positive in everything. Here are some positives I've found with Lakes:
1. Experience with these WX conditions:
* Hot & high during summer
* Midwest thunderstorms during summer
* Snow/Ice storms during winter
* IFR Mountain flying
2. Hand flying the entire time = all hand flown approaches = makes you a better pilot
3. Doing all those hand flown approachs in weather conditions listed above and into less than "large" airports. (When's the last time you flew an NDB approach to minimums at night and had to circle?)
For me personally I would like the experience operating under these conditions. Why? It'll make me a better pilot down the road when I have that cushy job flying a G-V into Eagle.
Madav8r
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
I'm almost scared to say this but I just finished indoc at Lakes and have the systems final tomorrow. I'd be happy to answer what I can about the company and training this far.
Yes, only CA's get Jepp charts but both pilots use them in flt.
Lakes is short on CA's and upgrading quick, about 9mo.
The training is not easy, mostly due to the very short time given to learn the enormous amount of material.
I'm almost scared to say this but I just finished indoc at Lakes and have the systems final tomorrow. I'd be happy to answer what I can about the company and training this far.
Yes, only CA's get Jepp charts but both pilots use them in flt.
Lakes is short on CA's and upgrading quick, about 9mo.
The training is not easy, mostly due to the very short time given to learn the enormous amount of material.
skydog
New Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
Former Laker here. Forget pay and QOL. The reason I ultimately quit there was because I felt they were an accident waiting to happen. I'll always remember the day when the Dir of MX grounded the entire Brasilia fleet because,due to poor record keeping, they weren't sure if the correct type of tires were installed on the airplane. There is no excuse for that kind of shoddy work.
I quit after only 3 months. 3 months later they had an accident I was afraid of.
Former Laker here. Forget pay and QOL. The reason I ultimately quit there was because I felt they were an accident waiting to happen. I'll always remember the day when the Dir of MX grounded the entire Brasilia fleet because,due to poor record keeping, they weren't sure if the correct type of tires were installed on the airplane. There is no excuse for that kind of shoddy work.
I quit after only 3 months. 3 months later they had an accident I was afraid of.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
Just curious for you GL people...I heard a rumor you have to pay for your own manuals...is this true?? Also, I've heard of basically a 6 on 1 off schedule for new hires with very long duty days.
Just curious...
TX
Just curious for you GL people...I heard a rumor you have to pay for your own manuals...is this true?? Also, I've heard of basically a 6 on 1 off schedule for new hires with very long duty days.
Just curious...
TX
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious for you GL people...I heard a rumor you have to pay for your own manuals...is this true?? Also, I've heard of basically a 6 on 1 off schedule for new hires with very long duty days.
Just curious...
TX
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All for doing something you love huh.....
(not directed at anyone specific)
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Just curious for you GL people...I heard a rumor you have to pay for your own manuals...is this true?? Also, I've heard of basically a 6 on 1 off schedule for new hires with very long duty days.
Just curious...
TX
[/ QUOTE ]
All for doing something you love huh.....
(not directed at anyone specific)
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
The key is, do they treat their employees with SIGNIFICANTLY less respect than other airline's management. If that is the case, then I would be more apt to look elsewhere to get the experience, even if it takes longer to get to my goal. Just like PFT, organizations will continue to get away with whatever they can unless the aviation community stands up for themselves and draws the line somewhere. That being said, I know very little about GL and if we are just talking about the same issues that other regionals and their management have, I would still consider them.
The key is, do they treat their employees with SIGNIFICANTLY less respect than other airline's management. If that is the case, then I would be more apt to look elsewhere to get the experience, even if it takes longer to get to my goal. Just like PFT, organizations will continue to get away with whatever they can unless the aviation community stands up for themselves and draws the line somewhere. That being said, I know very little about GL and if we are just talking about the same issues that other regionals and their management have, I would still consider them.
davetheflyer
New Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
My sim part at ASA was a former Great Laker. For him, the $19,000 first year pay at ASA was a significant pay raise, even after 2-3 years at GL. A second year CRJ FO makes about as much as a GL captain. He also confirmed the poor QOL, the Jepps for captains only, and the shoddy maintenance.
Add to that the fact that the flying is in Beech 1900s with no autopilot or glass. He had a tough time upgrading to the CRJ due to that, not because he was a bad pilot, but because he didn't have any advanced aircraft experience.
I'd recommend almost any other company over Lakes. Even Mesa. At least there you have a chance to fly a newer aircraft with glass and an autopilot.
My sim part at ASA was a former Great Laker. For him, the $19,000 first year pay at ASA was a significant pay raise, even after 2-3 years at GL. A second year CRJ FO makes about as much as a GL captain. He also confirmed the poor QOL, the Jepps for captains only, and the shoddy maintenance.
Add to that the fact that the flying is in Beech 1900s with no autopilot or glass. He had a tough time upgrading to the CRJ due to that, not because he was a bad pilot, but because he didn't have any advanced aircraft experience.
I'd recommend almost any other company over Lakes. Even Mesa. At least there you have a chance to fly a newer aircraft with glass and an autopilot.
CaptChris
New Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
Great Lakes aside, there are other airlines out there doing the same thing (i.e. CommutAir). I know those pilots have a hell of a life for 15-17 bucks an hour 1st year, and basically operate the same way. Maybe it is what these companies have to do to make a profit in the B-1900.
Great Lakes aside, there are other airlines out there doing the same thing (i.e. CommutAir). I know those pilots have a hell of a life for 15-17 bucks an hour 1st year, and basically operate the same way. Maybe it is what these companies have to do to make a profit in the B-1900.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Re: what\'s wrong with great lakes?
I remember applying there when I had 600 hours or so. I was ready to move up on the ladder I guess. I was working 7 days a week as a CFI, and didnt really know that being home everynite was all that great of a thing. If i was put in a similar situation today I would take the job if I had around 600 hours and low multi. At the point I got to the 1000/200 range I would not take it. If i was from that side of the country, It may not be a bad deal. How could it be worse then instructing (not that its bad). At least you get a contract to work under, pay is probably close, you get nonrev benefits, better quality flight time, more set schedule etc etc...You really on call every day as a flight instructor.
I remember applying there when I had 600 hours or so. I was ready to move up on the ladder I guess. I was working 7 days a week as a CFI, and didnt really know that being home everynite was all that great of a thing. If i was put in a similar situation today I would take the job if I had around 600 hours and low multi. At the point I got to the 1000/200 range I would not take it. If i was from that side of the country, It may not be a bad deal. How could it be worse then instructing (not that its bad). At least you get a contract to work under, pay is probably close, you get nonrev benefits, better quality flight time, more set schedule etc etc...You really on call every day as a flight instructor.