What's up with 9e

[kellwolf]

.... It's also one list. If we sell Colgan, it won't be just Colgan pilots going. It will be the bottom on the list guys going.

I think. Someone correct me if I'm bogus here.

Actually, no. Several times in Section 1 it mentions that it's the pilots at that "Airline" at the time. From the way I read it, if Colgan (or Mesaba or whatever we're calling the certificate this month) were to be sold off, it would be the pilots on that certificate at the time of purchase that would have the opportunity to go. As Juice pointed out, they wouldn't be REQUIRED to go. For anyone hired after around mid-2006, I think their seniority and QoL would be better if they DID go with it. Anyone junior to that is gonna be in JFK or DTW on the -200 if you wanted a CA slot. Not sure where things would fall with the FOs.

 

[crazyjaydawg]

From what I can tell, if there's no long term agreement reached by April 2nd, expect and RFP to be tossed out on Colgan's flying. Enter Skywest. It's no secret they've wanted a Q400 operation for a while. Hell, I say we sell them Colgan and call it done myself.

Is everyone forgetting that Skywest is already churning over their most recent purchases of xjet and asa? I don't think that they're in the position to be buying an entire airline and all the associated retraining with it right now...

 

[jynxyjoe]

Is everyone forgetting that Skywest is already churning over their most recent purchases of xjet and asa? I don't think that they're in the position to be buying an entire airline and all the associated retraining with it right now...

One thing airlines aren't, it's conservative buyers.

 

[crazyjaydawg]

One thing airlines aren't, it's conservative buyers.

I agree with you on that, but it seems like most regionals are kinda sitting on their hands right now i.e. Skywest and Surejet, RAH is just confused for an identity right now and TSH is working to staff Gojet properly. If you ask me the best company to handle the Qs and the cheapest would be Commutair...but I better keep that on the DL unless everyone jumps to Commutair for the quick upgrade

 

[ClarkGriswold]

I agree with you on that, but it seems like most regionals are kinda sitting on their hands right now i.e. Skywest and Surejet, RAH is just confused for an identity right now and TSH is working to staff Gojet properly. If you ask me the best company to handle the Qs and the cheapest would be Commutair...but I better keep that on the DL unless everyone jumps to Commutair for the quick upgrade

Commutair is extremely understaffed right now, why would Ucal give them airplanes and deal with that crap almost all over again like here? It would be easier for them to give us the long term deal, park a couple Saabs and BAM we are properly staffed

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree with you on that, but it seems like most regionals are kinda sitting on their hands right now i.e. Skywest and Surejet, RAH is just confused for an identity right now and TSH is working to staff Gojet properly. If you ask me the best company to handle the Qs and the cheapest would be Commutair...but I better keep that on the DL unless everyone jumps to Commutair for the quick upgrade

Understaffed? They'll just hire our furloughs, it'll be fine.

It will all work out for Skywest, shortly after that however, the mainline management will go "ohhh crap, Skywest is getting too big, lets put all our new planes at Silver/BigSky and give Skywest a little competition."

Any way this goes, Pinnacolaba's days to bankruptcy are numbered. Unless of course some new flying comes in (that we can't staff). Fun thing about airlines is that it's always changing. By fun I mean lousy.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Why do you think that will happen? I think well get a new long term deal.

Understaffed? They'll just hire our furloughs, it'll be fine.

It will all work out for Skywest, shortly after that however, the mainline management will go "ohhh crap, Skywest is getting too big, lets put all our new planes at Silver/BigSky and give Skywest a little competition."

Any way this goes, Pinnacolaba's days to bankruptcy are numbered. Unless of course some new flying comes in (that we can't staff). Fun thing about airlines is that it's always changing. By fun I mean lousy.

 

[ctab5060X]

Im hearing everything from big announcement on the 15th atl base is closing losing all the q's getting more q's. Chapter 11 chapter 7 stock tanking but big purchases made lately
Anyone got anything close to concrete?

From the sound of things, the announcement on the 15th might be an announcement on the completion of corportate restructuring.
I would like to know how much money the company will save by restructuring the corporate structure.

I think a good indicator of where the company stands will be the updates from the negotiations that started today.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Why do you think that will happen? I think well get a new long term deal.

I don't have any confidence this ship can be righted without bankruptcy. Furthermore Colgan's numbers are a source of constant embarrassment to Eagan as we hear about constantly. Since Colgan is no longer the cheapest operator, nor are they they safest bet for continued operation, I believe mainline "partners" would kick the aircraft around to a reputable carrier.

With all that said, "he whose name is Sean" is apparently having some success at the moment. Perhaps it will continue a while longer.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

From the sound of things, the announcement on the 15th might be an announcement on the completion of corportate restructuring.
I would like to know how much money the company will save by restructuring the corporate structure.

I think a good indicator of where the company stands will be the updates from the negotiations that started today.

Which negotiations started today?

Jynxy which reputable carriers are you talking about?
Skywest- Maybe... But their pilots already have told management they wont fly them for what they are offering to pay, plus they lost more money than expected last Q AND the Surejet merger isnt completed and losing money.
GoJet - They cannot staff their flying and they are dealing with their new Delta project.
Horizon - is owned by Alaska so why would they want to give United money.
Republic - is short staffed right now and lynx is done.
Commutair - very short staffed too

The bottom line is we are in the best position because we have the relationship with UCal, can be properly staffed easily by parking a few Saabs. This would allow UCal to skip out on any growing pains by switching to another carrier. My understanding from being on the dark side that the 9E/XJ guys havent been able to really see is that UCal has helped Colgan alot and seems to like 9L, which seems to be the case by the recent news...


Also just read somewhere else but if we filed BK we would keep flying until the judge says so, in which Ucal would just ask for sometime to find a replacement. If management didnt think we would be able to get out of this without BK we would just do it. UCal doesnt need to worry about us leaving a gaping hole, we would fly until replaced.

 

[CEWLGUY]

I don't have any confidence this ship can be righted without bankruptcy. Furthermore Colgan's numbers are a source of constant embarrassment to Eagan as we hear about constantly. Since Colgan is no longer the cheapest operator, nor are they they safest bet for continued operation, I believe mainline "partners" would kick the aircraft around to a reputable carrier.

With all that said, "he whose name is Sean" is apparently having some success at the moment. Perhaps it will continue a while longer.

You might want to look at 9L's performance for the past couple months, it sounds like your boys in Eagan are behind the times.

 

[ctab5060X]

Which negotiations started today?

Contract concessions. Third round was supposed to start today (the 8th). That is directly from the last Special Hotline from the MEC sent out last Thrusday.

This week, the company is working internally and with stakeholders other than ALPA. The ALPA Negotiating Committee is currently scheduled to renew talks with the company next Wednesday, February 8. The Negotiating Committee is using this week to further prepare for the upcoming talks and the current plan is to continue to discuss training savings and other targeted modifications that are necessary to avoid bankruptcy.

The bottom line is we are in the best position because we have the relationship with UCal, can be properly staffed easily by parking a few Saabs. This would allow UCal to skip out on any growing pains by switching to another carrier. My understanding from being on the dark side that the 9E/XJ guys havent been able to really see is that UCal has helped Colgan alot and seems to like 9L, which seems to be the case by the recent news...

I think you are right. From the way I understand things, Pinnacle does not want to file bankrupcy. That would be the worst for all parties involved and I hope we can stay out of bankrupcy. The agreements with EDC and now United are a step in the right direction. Getting the vertical structure of the company fixed is another step. With our major problem being a cash flow issue, anything that can cut costs (restructuring corporate) and bring in more money (the CPA with United) helps us avoid bankrupcy.

 

[ctab5060X]

You might want to look at 9L's performance for the past couple months, it sounds like your boys in Eagan are behind the times.

Could it be because those "in the know" are now in Memphis?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Which negotiations started today?

Jynxy which reputable carriers are you talking about?
Skywest- Maybe... But their pilots already have told management they wont fly them for what they are offering to pay, plus they lost more money than expected last Q AND the Surejet merger isnt completed and losing money.
GoJet - They cannot staff their flying and they are dealing with their new Delta project.
Horizon - is owned by Alaska so why would they want to give United money.
Republic - is short staffed right now and lynx is done.
Commutair - very short staffed too

The bottom line is we are in the best position because we have the relationship with UCal, can be properly staffed easily by parking a few Saabs. This would allow UCal to skip out on any growing pains by switching to another carrier. My understanding from being on the dark side that the 9E/XJ guys havent been able to really see is that UCal has helped Colgan alot and seems to like 9L, which seems to be the case by the recent news...


Also just read somewhere else but if we filed BK we would keep flying until the judge says so, in which Ucal would just ask for sometime to find a replacement. If management didnt think we would be able to get out of this without BK we would just do it. UCal doesnt need to worry about us leaving a gaping hole, we would fly until replaced.

I don't know why you went through all of that when I said Skywest in the beginning. So the biggest obstacle for Skywest to get the Q's is the pilots wanting a little more money? I don't think that's as big an obstacle as you think it is.

Seeing as how Delta is often lamented by the industry as the worst partner to have, thus I'm completely unsurprised we were able to patch up the contract issues with Ucal before Delta. I was at Colgan, I remember hearing stories from the training department in Man asses that Cal bailed your operation out when you started on at Houston too. I think it's in our best interest to get as much flying as possible from UCal and anyone that's not Delta.

You might want to look at 9L's performance for the past couple months, it sounds like your boys in Eagan are behind the times.

You'd have to post it up, I haven't been in Eagan for a few months. I do know there was a big push to help you guys out (months back), maybe it's working finally.

Could it be because those "in the know" are now in Memphis?

Could be they brought more people down to Memphis to help the illiterate red necks at the strip mall to run the airline. Well I guess some of our stuff is at One Commerce Square for now, until we move back into the strip mall because Phil can't read or use a calculator. I know initially our management got cut in half, that is, half to run our operation and half to help run Pinnacle (I guess the 20 or so VP positions couldn't get it done). If there's more down in Memphis (from Eagan) the merrier for all...

 

[ctab5060X]

Seeing as how Delta is often lamented by the industry as the worst partner to have, thus I'm completely unsurprised we were able to patch up the contract issues with Ucal before Delta. I was at Colgan, I remember hearing stories from the training department in Man asses that Cal bailed your operation out when you started on at Houston too. I think it's in our best interest to get as much flying as possible from UCal and anyone that's not Delta.

I agree with the getting flying from someone who is not Delta. On the -200, our productivity, average block per leg, and staffing have all suffered because of the flying Delta gives us. Right now, we are staffing almost twice as many reserves in each base than we would have under Northwest. There isno such thing as a 28 hour 4-day trip anymore. There are plenty of trips that have you sit in a hotel room (or around the airport) more than you actually fly.

With regards to the contract issues, what issues do we have with Delta? Other than the money they are supposed to pay out for training costs associated with our base realignments in 2011, 3 of the 4 agreeements are making money. The only operation that is costing Pinnacle any money is the ATL -900 operation and I understand that the company does not want to open that ASA. I think once we get passed the fenced operation and can start to run both XJ and PQ tail numbers through the entire Delta system, I think you will see the the ATL operation start making money.

Could be they brought more people down to Memphis to help the illiterate red necks at the strip mall to run the airline. Well I guess some of our stuff is at One Commerce Square for now, until we move back into the strip mall because Phil can't read or use a calculator. I know initially our management got cut in half, that is, half to run our operation and half to help run Pinnacle (I guess the 20 or so VP positions couldn't get it done). If there's more down in Memphis (from Eagan) the merrier for all...

Don't think we will end up back at the strip mall any time soon. If you look at the new structure of the company, a fair number of the positions are ex-XJ management. Not that them being here is a bad thing. Culture wise, Pinnacle is night and day from where we were even just a year ago. The company actually wants a good working relationship with the pilot group, even so far as to create positions that PT and gang wouldn't even consider (even though we repeatedly asked for them). Issues are now being solved in near "real-time" rather than the hardcore "fly now, grieve later" attitude that ran rampant when I started here.

 

[kellwolf]

Is everyone forgetting that Skywest is already churning over their most recent purchases of xjet and asa? I don't think that they're in the position to be buying an entire airline and all the associated retraining with it right now...

Hell, 9E pretty much got a "Regional Airline BLOWOUT SALE!!!" special from Delta. We didn't have cash enough in the bank or the resource, but we got Mesaba. Who was the biggest rumor the day before that was announced as far as who was going to buy Mesaba? Skywest. If the right deal comes up, like most good management teams that see an opportunity, they'll jump on it. Sadly, Pinnacle's management team just saw a "deal" and jumped on it. It wasn't really a good deal, and it wasn't a good opportunity. Colgan was an opportunity to acquire a non-union carrier for whipsaw during contract negotiations. That one backfired. Mesaba was an opportunity for Phil to flip the middle finger to a hated rival. Well, at least THAT one worked out. He even tossed another finger in to the employees of his own airline as he rode off into the sunset with his money bags.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hell, 9E pretty much got a "Regional Airline BLOWOUT SALE!!!" special from Delta. We didn't have cash enough in the bank or the resource, but we got Mesaba. Who was the biggest rumor the day before that was announced as far as who was going to buy Mesaba? Skywest. If the right deal comes up, like most good management teams that see an opportunity, they'll jump on it. Sadly, Pinnacle's management team just saw a "deal" and jumped on it. It wasn't really a good deal, and it wasn't a good opportunity. Colgan was an opportunity to acquire a non-union carrier for whipsaw during contract negotiations. That one backfired. Mesaba was an opportunity for Phil to flip the middle finger to a hated rival. Well, at least THAT one worked out. He even tossed another finger in to the employees of his own airline as he rode off into the sunset with his money bags.

I'm pretty sure Skywest didn't buy us for the same reason Trenary didn't read about in our contract- Scope. We could (like Xjet) force them into one list. Unlike Xjet, Skywest couldn't say, "Take our deal or screw you!" because we'd say, "So wait, our choices are going to back off our scope because you hate unions or stay wholly owned? Yeah... I vote flow."

Mesaba is making money, unless all the accounting during Phildo was wrong and Menke chooses to continue hiding it. Pinnacle got a huge revenue increase, a margin increase and the pilots got a contract (I know I know, Mesaba had nothing at all to do with it, don't even care right now). Delta is the only one flipping the bird by still not paying us for the transition cost, giving us the rate increase promised in the agreement, and parking the Saabs early (training whack). Perhaps Skywest saw that coming too after what happened to them with ASA's props and Trenary didn't. I say "saw" that purposefully because I'm still unconvinced anyone at the strip mall or Commerce Square could read and understand English.

 

[kellwolf]

I'm pretty sure Skywest didn't buy us for the same reason Trenary didn't read about in our contract- Scope. We could (like Xjet) force them into one list. Unlike Xjet, Skywest couldn't say, "Take our deal or screw you!" because we'd say, "So wait, our choices are going to back off our scope because you hate unions or stay wholly owned? Yeah... I vote flow."

Mesaba is making money, unless all the accounting during Phildo was wrong and Menke chooses to continue hiding it. Pinnacle got a huge revenue increase, a margin increase and the pilots got a contract (I know I know, Mesaba had nothing at all to do with it, don't even care right now). Delta is the only one flipping the bird by still not paying us for the transition cost, giving us the rate increase promised in the agreement, and parking the Saabs early (training whack). Perhaps Skywest saw that coming too after what happened to them with ASA's props and Trenary didn't. I say "saw" that purposefully because I'm still unconvinced anyone at the strip mall or Commerce Square could read and understand English.

Joe, you missed my point. It's no all "Mesaba hosed the Pinnacle guys" rhetoric. My point was 9E had nothing with which to acquire Mesaba but managed to do so anyway. I'm sure Phil read the contract. However, unlike Spanjers, Phil's response to contracts is "Run it like you want to run it. They can grieve it and work it out in court." Given all the interpretations that were out there on everyone's scope clauses, I'm sure he was fully ready to run the airline exactly how he wanted until the courts came back with a decisions a few years down the road.

I could generate reasonable doubt on your scope clause, and I'm not even a contract lawyer. Get a good contract lawyer (which Pinnacle loves to pay those guys but not the pilots), and it would have been tied up for a LOOOOONG time while we were run as separate entities.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Joe, you missed my point. It's no all "Mesaba hosed the Pinnacle guys" rhetoric. My point was 9E had nothing with which to acquire Mesaba but managed to do so anyway. I'm sure Phil read the contract. However, unlike Spanjers, Phil's response to contracts is "Run it like you want to run it. They can grieve it and work it out in court." Given all the interpretations that were out there on everyone's scope clauses, I'm sure he was fully ready to run the airline exactly how he wanted until the courts came back with a decisions a few years down the road.

I could generate reasonable doubt on your scope clause, and I'm not even a contract lawyer. Get a good contract lawyer (which Pinnacle loves to pay those guys but not the pilots), and it would have been tied up for a LOOOOONG time while we were run as separate entities.

I've long heard of the interpretation woes that afflicted the Pinnacle pilots. I still remember you telling me that you interpreted the meaning of our scope clause as Pinnacle only having to offer me a job to come over, and that could include non pilot positions. Thankfully I took your interpretation and slapped Trenary across the face with it and told him that I agreed to your interpretations and also interpreted it to mean I'd have to be offered his job. Thankfully, he gave in and gave us the one list I asked for. Sound preposterous? Hey man, that's how I rollz.

I fail to see the flaws you see in our old scope language, and I'm not a contract lawyer either. I also fail to see how Phil was going to run the airlines any way he saw fit, when quite clearly his plans (loudly announced) included giving Colgan our old contract (our current contract except with higher Saab pay rates and less deadhead pay) thanks to our scope. You say there's a way, yet we can't go back in time and you prove it to me. I'd say we are at an impasse with this made up scenario. Anyway, if you took me back in time I would have flipped you the bird and got a job with Compass instead back in '07, because all I really wanted was the flow and the captain seat.

Anyway, here we are with one list and one contract and a higher literacy rate at Commerce Square.

 

[PropDriver]

You might want to look at 9L's performance for the past couple months, it sounds like your boys in Eagan are behind the times.

IAH only:

Historical Flight Ops Delays and recent trends
COMPARISON
• Q400 2011 VS 2012
o CCF – 98.0 VS 99.6
o D0 – 64.8 VS 72.1
• SAAB 2011 VS 2012
o CCF – 98.7 VS 99.7
o D0 – 55.2 VS 67.1
This week
• Q400
o CCF – 99.91 VS GOAL 99.4
• SAAB
o CCF – 100 VS GOAL 99.0