What's the purpose of VFR on Top?

Chief Captain

Well-Known Member
I'm curious, as I can't seem to think of any reason somebody would want this kind of clearance. Why not request another altitude?

I'd appreciate any input, especially from somebody who's actually used it.
 
Get out of the airport in a low broken layer, do some flight training in VFR on top, and either pick up a clearance to get back or by that time the broken turns to sct or few and just return VFR. Happens quite often for this reason. If on an actual flight from point A to B, I would rather file IFR the entire route, even if its a thin layer and clear at destination.
 
Not a pilot....but....

When I worked I western Washington I issued VFR on top a LOT. Early morning...fog layer blocking a clear blue sky, etc.
 
Get out of the airport in a low broken layer, do some flight training in VFR on top, and either pick up a clearance to get back or by that time the broken turns to sct or few and just return VFR. Happens quite often for this reason. If on an actual flight from point A to B, I would rather file IFR the entire route, even if its a thin layer and clear at destination.

Thanks. So with that clearance, you can stop going towards your destination, and do steep turns, stalls etc.? Or would you just file to KABC to KABC then tell ATC what you really want to do once airborne?
 
Not a pilot....but....

When I worked I western Washington I issued VFR on top a LOT. Early morning...fog layer blocking a clear blue sky, etc.

Were these guys going someplace, or just training, like the above poster said? If they're going someplace, why not just cancel IFR if they don't want to fly IFR? If training, how much communication is required, since you're required to report altitude (and I presume) course changes?
 
yeah we can file from point A to point B or even point A to point A with a VFR on top. It allows us to get through the layer, go to the practice area and do whatever training we want but retain the IFR squawk. Just let ATC know the situation. If you didn't want to keep the clearance or didn't need it, you could just cancel IFR.
 
Were these guys going someplace, or just training, like the above poster said? If they're going someplace, why not just cancel IFR if they don't want to fly IFR? If training, how much communication is required, since you're required to report altitude (and I presume) course changes?

When the weather requires a VFR on top here in Daytona, most people just get on top, and cancel both IFR and then VFR flight following. Then they just call approach back up when they want to come in and pick up IFR, if needed, or come in VFR.
 
Were these guys going someplace, or just training, like the above poster said? If they're going someplace, why not just cancel IFR if they don't want to fly IFR? If training, how much communication is required, since you're required to report altitude (and I presume) course changes?

If training you definitely won't report course changes. You will do that 100 times in a typical training flight. The controller will just give traffic calls if necessary, there will be little to no VFR traffic up there.

Just file IFR from point A to point A, put "VFR maneuvers on top" in the remarks section and it will be pretty self-explanatory from there.....
 
I'm curious, as I can't seem to think of any reason somebody would want this kind of clearance. Why not request another altitude?

I'd appreciate any input, especially from somebody who's actually used it.

It depends on what form of VFR on top you are asking about.

1) An IFR flight plan with VFR on Top. This would be from point A to B. Point A has a low level ceiling and you only want to get on top. You could cancel IFR, but maybe B might have some clouds too. This flight plan prevents you from having to pick up another IFR flight plan at your destination (while trying to fly). You cannot make changes in ALT/HDG without letting ATC know. You are on an IFR flight the whole time.

2) a Climb to VFR (on top). There is no need to file an IFR flight plan. You pick it up as a local with clearance delivery. It is assumed you will be able to climb to VMC. You either have intentions of flying to an area with VMC, or you will need to pick up another IFR clearance at your destination. This could allow you to fly direct or any other way you desire once on top and the IFR is canceled.
The other reason for 2 would be to go to a practice area. I use it regularly. climb to VFR do maneuvers with a student, and if the clouds have not broken we just pick up a local ifr to return. Actually the local ATC is so used to us doing this we keep our IFR squawk even after we cancel IFR, because they know we will probably pick up another local in an hour or so.
 
To make it more confusing if you get a VFR On Top clearance and then cancel IFR you no longer have a VFR On Top clearance. ;)

That's because "VFR On Top" is an IFR clearance, sneaky sneaky.

It's kinda like cancelling IFR when you're on a visual approach, you're no longer on a visual approach per se, you're just flying VFR to the field.
 
Get out of the airport in a low broken layer, do some flight training in VFR on top, and either pick up a clearance to get back or by that time the broken turns to sct or few and just return VFR. Happens quite often for this reason. If on an actual flight from point A to B, I would rather file IFR the entire route, even if its a thin layer and clear at destination.
:yeahthat:
Used to get an IFR clearance out of GGG all the time to climb to VFR on top. Once on top, we'd cancel. Then when it was time to go back, either find a hole and drop through it (if ceilings were high enough) or pick up an IFR back to the airport. This procedure is a lot simpler if you have radar approach control-if you have to deal with someone elses airspace (i. e, overlying class B/C) or if you have to get your IFR from Center it's a little more of a hassle.
 
Most of the time I get VFR On Top (OTP) requests, the pilot cancels after they reach VMC anyway. If the pilot does not cancel, then although they're able to maneuver VFR, they are still expected to fly their filed course to destination. It's like an IFR flight with deviations constantly approved.

As for requesting OTP as opposed to just filing an IFR flight plan and canceling.... To us ATC it's a pretty similar thing with a few procedural differences.

I could be wrong, but maybe the advantage to filing OTP is that it shows up as the "requested altitude" on our flight strips (it will say "OTP instead of 080 or 100 etc). So instead of getting "expect 1-0 thousand 1-0 minutes after departure," you get "expect climb to VFR On Top at or below <that sector's altitude limit> 1-0 minutes after departure." So if you don't know where the tops are, you'll be authorized (traffic permitting) to climb up to that sector's highest altitude in an attempt to get above the cloud, and you need only report when you finally break out.

The alternative is filing an IFR flight plan with a final altitude you THINK is above the clouds. But then, if it isn't, you'll have to request higher and higher with the controller mid-flight until you get there. In practice I see it done both ways and it usually works fine.

4-4-8 of the AIM also explains a pilot's responsibility when operating "on top"

Some pertinent sections:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC
authorization to “maintain VFR-on-top/maintain
VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight plans must:

1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as
prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.159.

3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are
applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes,
position reporting, radio communications, course to
be flown
, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

NOTE−
Pilots should advise ATC prior to any altitude change to
insure the exchange of accurate traffic information.
 
"VFR on Top" is also used to help in the ATC world. Due to some areas of non radar coverage. A pilot can avoid non radar routing having to go via victor airways and over navaids due to navaid limitations (usually 40nm+40nm = 80nm). Although it can't be solicited, it has to be pilot requested.
 
Most places I have done this, I ask for a IFR climb to VFR and cancel. Usually I just file to and intersection. Then, like has been said, ask for an approach when your done. I'm no controler, but I'd imagine that it makes the controlers life eaiser when you do it this way. They don't have to issue advisories to a guy in the practice areea while having to deal with everyone comming out of airports IFR. When we get the marine layer out here on the west coast, it can get busy for the guys trying to handle all the people trying to get out/in, and I try not to add to thier workload when they are already busy working all the depatures and arrivals.
 
I fly VFR on Top out in the Rockies quite a bit. In fact I just came from Telluride CO today and when ATC asked me to climb and maintain 18,000 for Terrain I just requested VFR on Top and now altitude is at my discretion.

I also request VFR on Top sometimes so I can stay lower for better tailwinds, or to stay out of ice in the warmer temps, to avoid non radar routing, or to avoid the oxygen requirement. Also ATC out here wont descend me lower then 16,000 feet due to terrain at my home airport so I will request VFR on top so I can start my descent or just request a Contact Approach.
 
Back
Top