What's better?? PIC Multi or SIC turbine?

Which would you take?

  • Cessna 402, part 121 PIC multi (30k/ yr, 8 days off a month)

    Votes: 19 33.3%

  • BeechJet 400, part 135 SIC multi turbine (40k/yr, 5 days off a month)

    Votes: 24 42.1%

  • ERJ, part 121 SIC multi turbine airline (20k/ yr, 12 days off month)

    Votes: 14 24.6%
  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
dasleben said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say "All of the above."

Only speaking from personal experience, but my first flying job after instructing was for XJT, flying the ERJ as an FO. I did about a year there before being furloughed. When I hit the street, I had a little over 550 hours of jet time, which was the entire sum of my turbine experience. During my furlough, I got my ATP and flew 402s (probably the same 135 gig you're talking about), which provided me another 1500 hours of multi PIC, mostly single pilot, mostly in the northeast, in some rather challenging conditions. Naturally, I expected that future employers would brush off my Cape Air time as "just piston twin time," but in fact, the opposite happened.

That 402 time opened doors I wouldn't have ever expected possible. Instead of going back to XJT (or going to fly for another regional), I was sitting in interviews and 121 groundschools with guys I'd never thought I'd be competitive with, at companies I never thought I'd see without turbine PIC. In reality, that 402 time was huge, regardless of the types of motors attached to it. It was PIC time, and well, PIC is king.

I strongly encourage anyone with the opportunity to go fly for Cape Air (or similar operation) and build PIC time. Once you get a good amount of it on your resume, then go out and fly right seat somewhere. It will pay dividends later.

Actually, let me relate a story: A friend of mine was a Cape F/O, hired with about 400 hours. He flew the 402 for about 1000 hours, then right before going to upgrade, he got antsy and decided that he wanted to go fly for the regionals. I tried to talk him out of it, to convince him to at least get his ATP and do a year as PIC. Unfortunately, he did indeed leave the company, and now he's lost in the regional shuffle, uncompetitive to move on. As much as I've wanted to help him get out of the regionals, he simply can't do it; he doesn't have any PIC!

Seriously, PIC! Go fly the 402 for a year or two if you don't have a good base of 121/135 PIC already. It's not much time, you can go fly jets later, and it'll pay off in the long run.

P.S.: Don't get trapped in the "Pay/QOL" thing yet. Yes, that's very important...eventually. For now, you need to do work on your resume so that you can be competitive later on.
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Not always true, I left a regional for a LCC with minimal PIC (piston days).

For the candidate above, he has enough PIC time in singles that getting PIC in light twins IMO isn't going to add a whole lot as far as airlines are concerned about piston PIC time. They want turbine PIC (LCC and majors). When it comes to piston PIC, single or multi, you can just show it as "PIC" on your resume and explain as needed in an interview.

For the OP asking, given your qualifications and good amount of PIC time in singles, I'd say go for the Part 121 turbine SIC job. This would be best for a career path in the Part 121 airline LCC/Legacies. If you are interested in the corporate route, the BeechJet and type rating would be more beneficial. So it depends what your career goal is: airline or corporate?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Not always true, I left a regional for a LCC with minimal PIC (piston days).
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Consider yourself an exception to the rule. I can't help out a lot of guys I know in the regionals because they don't have PIC. Yes, the OP has significant PIC already, so he may be better off building multi turbine. A lower-time guy, on the other hand, should focus on PIC rather than sitting in the right seat somewhere, at least for the first couple years.
 
dasleben said:
Consider yourself an exception to the rule. I can't help out a lot of guys I know in the regionals because they don't have PIC. Yes, the OP has significant PIC already, so he may be better off building multi turbine. A lower-time guy, on the other hand, should focus on PIC rather than sitting in the right seat somewhere, at least for the first couple years.
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Lucky maybe not so much. I know a lot of RJ FOs with 0 TPIC getting hired at Spirit. JetBlue has taken a few as well. The way I see it, as long as one has the minimums, apply!
 
My opinion: Cross the 20K airline job off the list, because it is insulting to work for so little pay, and why would you.. if you can get a job that pays 30 or 40k. Well, I know why some people would, but I wouldn't. So enough about that one.

Now it's between the PIC 402 job or the SIC Beechjet job. I would choose the Beechjet, not only because it pays 25% more than the 402 job, but because it gets your foot in the door flying a jet. Making the jump (finding someone to hire you) can be a pretty big hurdle when trying to move from a prop to a jet, and you can skip that step right now and get into the jet. After a little while, you'll upgrade (hopefully) and then you're getting PIC jet time.

But like others have said, it also depends on your end goal. All the other posts I've read here have some good advice too. This is just my opinion and thought process given these choices. Good luck!

Edit: I'm also leaning this way because I'm more of a corporate flying type guy and have never had much desire to fly for the airlines.
 
The original poster mentioned 402s under Part 121. Am curious which airline operates 402s under 135 (isn't Cape Air Part 135?)
 
dasleben said:
Consider yourself an exception to the rule. I can't help out a lot of guys I know in the regionals because they don't have PIC. Yes, the OP has significant PIC already, so he may be better off building multi turbine. A lower-time guy, on the other hand, should focus on PIC rather than sitting in the right seat somewhere, at least for the first couple years.
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In your opinion what is a good amount of PIC time to obtain before moving on to an SIC gig? Reason I ask is because I'm just shy of 1800 PIC but very little total multi. Now I'm getting my MEI hopefully within the next two weeks and will be able to pick up a multi student or two at my Instructing job. I'll be instructing to at least 2000 PIC and ATP mins before moving on, but I could stay for awhile to get more time if I would be better off
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Lucky maybe not so much. I know a lot of RJ FOs with 0 TPIC getting hired at Spirit. JetBlue has taken a few as well. The way I see it, as long as one has the minimums, apply!
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That's good! Glad to see some movement again. I'm simply trying to help people build a more robust resume for when times are much worse (and most of us have seen it). PIC should be the priority.

at1024 said:
In your opinion what is a good amount of PIC time to obtain before moving on to an SIC gig? Reason I ask is because I'm just shy of 1800 PIC but very little total multi. Now I'm getting my MEI hopefully within the next two weeks and will be able to pick up a multi student or two at my Instructing job. I'll be instructing to at least 2000 PIC and ATP mins before moving on, but I could stay for awhile to get more time if I would be better off
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I honestly couldn't spit out a number... I think companies are going to look more at the type of operation more than the actual number.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Lucky maybe not so much. I know a lot of RJ FOs with 0 TPIC getting hired at Spirit. JetBlue has taken a few as well. The way I see it, as long as one has the minimums, apply!
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I hear this said a lot, but I'm curious what their background is, and how many FOs they hire vs Captains, or guys with a lot of PIC time period. I just can't imagine that in today's market, with the zillions of ridiculously high time regional captains out there, that a zero PIC time FO is even looked at, much less competitive.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I just hear my peers saying the same thing all the time, and it comes off as a comfort phrase. The ONE guy I know personally that's gone from the right seat at a regional to Jetblue has CFI and survey experience, and a couple thousand hours of TPIC in a van doing freight. This would be someone that I could see being competitive in today's market.

I also know a few guys that are staying in the right seat at the regionals because of their seniority and cake schedule they get. Personally, I think that's foolish.
 
UAL747400 said:
I hear this said a lot, but I'm curious what their background is, and how many FOs they hire vs Captains, or guys with a lot of PIC time period. I just can't imagine that in today's market, with the zillions of ridiculously high time regional captains out there, that a zero PIC time FO is even looked at, much less competitive.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I just hear my peers saying the same thing all the time, and it comes off as a comfort phrase. The ONE guy I know personally that's gone from the right seat at a regional to Jetblue has CFI and survey experience, and a couple thousand hours of TPIC in a van doing freight. This would be someone that I could see being competitive in today's market.

I also know a few guys that are staying in the right seat at the regionals because of their seniority and cake schedule they get. Personally, I think that's foolish.
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I had zero turbine PIC, and the only PIC I had was from light pistons, and I barely had enough PIC for ATP minimums, because I obtained the ATP in a Seneca twin. Other than that, most all my time is RJ SIC turbine time. Just apply. Stop listening to the peer "stories" because some of them can be exagerated or slanted. Spirit, Jetblue, and VX have all taken RJ FOs with 0 TPIC. Apply to all 3 as long as you meet the published minimums. Let the airline say no, not yourself because you think there isn't enough PIC on the resume. I applied to Spirit and VX, and VX called. I had zero connections, no contacts. I know I did really well on that online assessment, so maybe that helped.

Apply away!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I had zero turbine PIC, and the only PIC I had was from light pistons, and I barely had enough PIC for ATP minimums, because I obtained the ATP in a Seneca twin. Other than that, most all my time is RJ SIC turbine time. Just apply. Stop listening to the peer "stories" because some of them can be exagerated or slanted. Spirit, Jetblue, and VX have all taken RJ FOs with 0 TPIC. Apply to all 3 as long as you meet the published minimums. Let the airline say no, not yourself because you think there isn't enough PIC on the resume. I applied to Spirit and VX, and VX called. I had zero connections, no contacts. I know I did really well on that online assessment, so maybe that helped.

Apply away!
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I want to be clear that I have not been advocating not applying to these companies. If you meet the mins, toss your stuff in; you can't win if you don't play.

That said, I guarantee that the number of pilots hired by the companies listed above are overwhelmingly ones with significant PIC experience. It's important to let people know that it's not a good idea to plan to hang out in the right seat for a few years and move on without a lick of PIC, simply because a few RJ FOs did it. I lack TPIC as well, and I'm quite clear to people that if I were to lose my present job, I may very well have a tough time without it, even though my Cape PIC is good, respectable PIC experience.

The #1 priority needs to be PIC, at least at first.

P.S.: Be truthful, in your VX class, how many of you were RJ FOs without previous PIC experience elsewhere? I tell ya, in my latest groundschool, that number was 2 out of 22.
 
I was the only one. But in every class, there's always one or a couple. Honestly though, I also think it has to do with the ratio of those applying. People with TPIC far outnumber the applicants without it.
 
Something no one mentions is the 20k jet job could turn into a 50-60k job I'm a couple years and 79-80k after that. As far as value of building time for future jobs ( assuming airline)? Jet over piston any day of the week. Just look at the hiring minimums companies are posting.

Of course networking is the big trump card anymore so take anything anyone says with a canister of salt.
 
Cav said:
Personally I think 5 guaranteed days off per month sounds absolutely miserable.
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And that's probably a good company. I know guys who work for 13 days off per quarter (the legal minimum for 135 charter). Sounds awful.
 
dasleben said:
And that's probably a good company. I know guys who work for 13 days off per quarter (the legal minimum for 135 charter). Sounds awful.
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Sorry but flying airplanes is not THAT cool. Even if you are on call and rarely flying it's not worth it. On call days are still work days in my book and not entirely "mine" when the phone doesn't ring. Yeah it beats being on the road but my job is to be available so certain obligations must be met.

To the OP, if it were me, I'd take the 121 job without question if that was my end goal. If you're undecided and the 402 operator is a good company like Cape Air and you desire to live in one of their bases I might give it a hard look. I know a lot of people that loved working there. A few that didn't but it was for various personal reason not really related to the company itself.
 
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