What would you CFI's like to get paid???

Douglas said:
as a base I would like at least 2/3rds of what the company charges for my hour.
I am not even getting half right now at just under $20 bucks.

I could see them taking the money they charge for my dual given, if and only if they paid or in some way helped me get to where I am now...which they didn't.
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where are you now, douglas? at this school where i do most of my free-lancing, instructors keep $30 of the $35 charged and $45 of the $50 for pilot services. we could always use more instructors at north little rock. i don't want to work as much as i could. kork...
 
Fly4Fun said:
Just another question we have all asked at some point. What would you as CFI's like to get paid (realistically). What bonuses sound appealing to you? Health Ins? Pay? If you were logging 100 hours a month with a Large school?
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Well, with what we go through sometimes, I wish it was more than what we make. I guess relistically $20 an hour with benefits would be nice.:)
 
That and a salary. I hate going in for 8 hours and getting paid for 4. When I sit between lessons, I'm not getting paid. With a salary I'd have to do some office work but at least I'd get paid for it.
 
mhcasey said:
Honestly, I'd charge $50/hr if the other freelancers in the area weren't charging $35.
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Mhcasey, let me give you some advice, speaking from personal experience as a freelancer--charge whatever you feel like. If you're honestly worth $50, charge it.

When I started instructing I did it for $12/hour. No, that's not a typo, that's $12/hour. That kind of pay sucks, but I did it because I was hungry for hours, excited to be flying, didn't have many other options, and most importantly, didn't know any better.

Long story short, I moved to a slightly better paying gig ($15/hour) and burned myself out at that rate. I worked my butt off, incurred more risks than I cared to, and still had tiny pay checks.

Then I started freelancing for $30/hour. It felt pretty good, but still not 100% of what I thought I deserved.

Finally, I moved to a completely new area, started freelancing, and said to myself, "Screw it, I'm charging $45/hour. I don't care if I don't fly at all. I'm a darn good instructor, I've been around the block a few times, and I'm not giving away my skills for cheap anymore. I'd rather work at Wal-mart than fly for pennies." I honestly didn't know what to expect for responses from potential clients.

None of my students even batted an eye at me when I told them my rate. They just said, "Ok, no problem," and wrote the check.

I ran in to one guy, a student pilot, in a social situation away from the airport a while ago and he asked me about my freelance rate. When I told him $45/hour, he flat out said, "You're never going to make it around here unless you lower your rates. Even the most experienced guys in town only charge $35."

It was an interesting conversation to say the least. I politely told him that I felt $45 was a fair rate and I wasn't interested in teaching for less.

Frankly, I'm tired of dealing with people who pinch pennies. If they're really freaking out over a $10/hour difference between me and the other guy, I don't care to fly with them. I'm all for saving money, doing things affordably, etc., but it seems like some of these guys flying around in beat up old 150s don't recognize the *value* of things. If they're only choosing an instructor based on price, and not quality, they're missing the big picture. That $10/hour difference doesn't mean much if the cheaper guy isn't as good as the more expensive guy.

Ironically, that same student pilot telling me my rates are too high, also complained to me in the same conversation about how his current instructor wasn't very good and never had time to fly with him.

Anyway, I've gotten rambling here. My point is that my higher rates attract serious, high quality students who know the value of things. In the past few months I've flown with an investment banker, trauma surgeon, and business owner. I work hard, give them their money's worth and we've always gotten along great. I don't fly as often as instructors at big flight schools, but I can certainly compete with any freelancer in town who only charges $35/hour. If the student cares that much about price, let them go elsewhere and let your reputation speak for itself.
 
jrh said:
Ironically, that same student pilot telling me my rates are too high, also complained to me in the same conversation about how his current instructor wasn't very good and never had time to fly with him.
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Ha! That's awesome.
 
jrh said:
Ironically, that same student pilot telling me my rates are too high, also complained to me in the same conversation about how his current instructor wasn't very good and never had time to fly with him.
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When I was an instructor, people would come in saying "They only charge this for an instructor over there," and "I can rent a newer plane over there for the same price." I would politely tell them to go over there. Almost all of them would come back to me because the other schools planes would be in Mx all the time or with complaints about the instructors.

I guess some people just mark up prices for the fun of it, but some things are truly worth a little extra.
 
Fly4Fun said:
This thread could be a million miles long with "what ifs" but if a school were to pay for moving expenses plus all the other things mentioned. Would that help? Just thinking out loud.....................
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I am not real sure what you are looking for here, but in short I would NEVER sign an 18 month contract. Not for being a CFI, not for being an FO, not if you offered me a 747 captain spot at a Part 135 cargo company when I only had 1200 hrs.

There are too many things to think about to sign a long term contract. If something made me want to get out of that contract, it would ALWAYS haunt you because the aviation world is so small.

If you run a flight school, pay your instructors what they deserve and give them a good QOL. They will stick around without signing a contract. If you are a CFI, don't take a job for less than you are worth and you will not need to worry about signing a contract.
 
Ok, so heres my story and why im so interested in what you guys are getting paid.......I am in charge of CFI recruiting at Falcon Aviation Academy in Georgia. We are wanting to appeal to you guys as best we can and this input has been more than helpful. Right now we are paying our guys (and girls) $17 an hour for the first 30 days, provided they complete the aopa online safety courses and attend a safety seminar of some kind after 30 days their pay goes up to $22 an hour. With each additonal rating they get an increase in pay until they top out at $25 an hour. We currently provide Health and Dental benefits to our full time (those who fly at least 70 hours a month) instructors. We also have incentive programs in place, for example......if you were to sign off a private student provided they pass the first time the instructor would get a $75 bonus, additional ratings would be $50, and commercial sign offs $100. We also have alot of international students, if an instructor completes an international private student in 45 days they recieve a $250 bonus. We also have contracts in place as well......If you sign a 6 month contract with us and you have your initial CFI we will pay for your additional rating (CFII, MEI). With a 12 month contract we will pay for the additional ratings plus a $400/ month housing allowance for the 12 months. In some cases we can pay for moving costs with the substitution of a rating. With an 18 month contract you get the same as the 12 month but after 30days pay goes up to $30 an hour (provided you have all your ratings). All of our instructors are provided 5 hours per aircraft training allowance in each aircraft type (DA20, DA40, DA42, C152, C177, C182, BE55) for a total of 35 hours of company provided training. We have 37 aircraft mostly diamond, and 4 atlanta area locations. Our instructors are flying between 90 and 120 hours a month. Do you all think this compensation is fair? We are looking into some kind of Hour Gaurantee. Would love to hear you guys feedback on this.......................... thans in advance!
 
Speaking of QOL.......its small but a huge morale booster, we have a company paid cookout every monday night. As an employee I think its great its not alot but it helps and it provides a great platform to vent and discuss things with our owners and managers on a non threatining platform.
 
Fly4Fun said:
Speaking of QOL.......its small but a huge morale booster, we have a company paid cookout every monday night. As an employee I think its great its not alot but it helps and it provides a great platform to vent and discuss things with our owners and managers on a non threatining platform.
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well, it does sound like you folks are doing well to try and find good incentives to keep instructors around a while longer. most don't bother. i hope it works out well for your company as well as the instructors. it isn't easy to make good money in aviation. many fbo's are just getting by..and there's that old saying, 'if you wanna make a million bucks in aviation, start with two..' ;)
 
Fly4Fun said:
Ok, so heres my story and why im so interested in what you guys are getting paid.......I am in charge of CFI recruiting at Falcon Aviation Academy in Georgia. We are wanting to appeal to you guys as best we can and this input has been more than helpful. Right now we are paying our guys (and girls) $17 an hour for the first 30 days, provided they complete the aopa online safety courses and attend a safety seminar of some kind after 30 days their pay goes up to $22 an hour. With each additonal rating they get an increase in pay until they top out at $25 an hour. We currently provide Health and Dental benefits to our full time (those who fly at least 70 hours a month) instructors. We also have incentive programs in place, for example......if you were to sign off a private student provided they pass the first time the instructor would get a $75 bonus, additional ratings would be $50, and commercial sign offs $100. We also have alot of international students, if an instructor completes an international private student in 45 days they recieve a $250 bonus. We also have contracts in place as well......If you sign a 6 month contract with us and you have your initial CFI we will pay for your additional rating (CFII, MEI). With a 12 month contract we will pay for the additional ratings plus a $400/ month housing allowance for the 12 months. In some cases we can pay for moving costs with the substitution of a rating. With an 18 month contract you get the same as the 12 month but after 30days pay goes up to $30 an hour (provided you have all your ratings). All of our instructors are provided 5 hours per aircraft training allowance in each aircraft type (DA20, DA40, DA42, C152, C177, C182, BE55) for a total of 35 hours of company provided training. We have 37 aircraft mostly diamond, and 4 atlanta area locations. Our instructors are flying between 90 and 120 hours a month. Do you all think this compensation is fair? We are looking into some kind of Hour Gaurantee. Would love to hear you guys feedback on this.......................... thans in advance!
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First, kudos to you guys for attempting to up the bar with your benefits.

However, bonuses for checkrides have always bothered me. As professional instructors, we should want our students to succeed and pass checkrides. That's our job. Offering an incentive to do so might promote too-quick signoffs.

Just roll that money up into our salaries.

Your pay structure is WAY too complicated. Pay instructors a fair wage, plain and simple. Paid for ratings is a plus, for sure - but your 5 hours per aircraft training should be done regardless. That's not a perk, but the responsibility of the employer.
 
Ian J said:
First, kudos to you guys for attempting to up the bar with your benefits.

However, bonuses for checkrides have always bothered me. As professional instructors, we should want our students to succeed and pass checkrides. That's our job. Offering an incentive to do so might promote too-quick signoffs.

Just roll that money up into our salaries.

Your pay structure is WAY too complicated. Pay instructors a fair wage, plain and simple. Paid for ratings is a plus, for sure - but your 5 hours per aircraft training should be done regardless. That's not a perk, but the responsibility of the employer.
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i'm less bothered in principle by the checkride passes, except in situations where i've seen flight schools 'host' an in-house examiner - especially the one's that do a lot of foreign students in short courses. of course, once they're out of the country..out of sight..out of mind..

5 hours per aircraft strikes me as generous. nobody in my area can afford to touch that..or be willing to..but i'm speaking for contract pilots in the sense of not employees, folks that get 10-99's.
 
I agree... Good job for trying to make things better.

I only got an hour (if that) in each plane I instructed in, so giving your guys 5 hours is a big deal.

Bonuses - What I would do is, as management, keep track of the pass rate, number of rides, and so forth and just give a semi-annual bonus. Keep the numbers to yourself, just make them think you are giving them a pat on the shoulder. If they don't hang around 6 months, they will never see the bonus nor know what they are missing! Also consider that sometimes you just have 1 or 2 of "those" students that take a little longer. That goes for foreign and domestic students. I don't like the idea of penalizing (or not rewarding) for that.... although I understand what you are doing.
 
Fly4Fun--it sounds like you have a pretty decent place. I think it sounds fair the way you have it set up.

Are you having a hard time retaining instructors? If you are, I wouldn't be worried about the compensation. I'd be looking more at day to day operations, like how well the instructors get along with management, how happy they are with their schedules, if they feel like they're being pushed too hard in a particular area, if they like the direction the school is going in, etc.

I'm going to be starting work for a flight school next month, and although it's good pay and nice aircraft, that's not what truly excites me about working for them. The reason I'm excited about it is because I know the owner well, and I really like the way he runs his company. We have many of the same philosophies about teaching, marketing, management, etc. Basically, we just get along really well. I have confidence he'll be an easy boss to work for, I like the direction he's going in, and he has confidence I'll be an asset to his business. We're always "on the same page" so to speak.

When I was teaching at my old college's flight school, it wasn't always like that. They'd require us to attend CFI meetings at 7:00 a.m. every Monday morning (talk about having a case of the Mondays!), the meetings were never that productive, I didn't have much faith in one of the directors of the program, I thought they were wasting time and money on some useless endeavors, there were many issues with maintenance, and the list could go on. It was never to the point that I wanted to quit, but it certainly got very, very annoying at times. The pay was low, but even if they'd raised pay, I still would've gotten irritated at other things that went on.

Of course, if you are retaining instructors, disregard everything I just said and keep doing what you're doing! It sounds like you have a good gig down there.
 
jrh and the rest of you guys,

Thanks for the great input, we are trying to create an enviroment down here that is fun and exciting to work at. We want our instructors to have a great QOL. For the most part our instructors are happy and enjoy working for us, which is great to hear when you ask them about it. We need guys to stick around of course but when our school is so closely tied in with ASA (the unofficial back door to ASA) its hard to get them to stay. All of us in Aviation have dreams of being at the airlines and we dont want to get in the way of their dreams. Although we are trying to figure out how to attract the "lifer" instructors. Its tough to figure it all out, health insurance helps and all the incentives. And it doesnt help that some of the regionals are going to lower their mins. to Multi Commercial at the first of the year!! Again thanks for all the input.
 
Fly4Fun said:
Although we are trying to figure out how to attract the "lifer" instructors. Its tough to figure it all out, health insurance helps and all the incentives.
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To be blunt, I doubt you'll ever get truly long term (more than a year or two) instructors there no matter what you do.

It sounds like a good gig, but at the end of the day, you're still a big flight academy pushing people through to the airlines. Very few "lifer" instructors are interested in that kind of flying.

Most of the guys who really love to teach and want to do it on a long term basis are at FBOs, teaching a variety of students who may or may not be interested in an aviation career.

I wouldn't call myself a lifer by any means, but I have been teaching for a while, and I plan to keep teaching for a while. I keep going because I get excited about old school aviation. The kind of flying where you can fly out to an airport diner and have lunch, or go to an air show and camp with hundreds of other aircraft owners, or just go fly around and sightsee with a friend. I love practicing spins and doing takeoffs and landings on grass strips in the middle of nowhere. I think it's really cool when I fly through mountain passes or get a plane down and stopped in a couple hundred feet, not because I need to, but because I can. I push myself to be a better pilot not because I'm getting ready to pass a checkride or go for an airline interview, but because I think it's fun. I like teaching at big, busy airports, but I also like the atmosphere of the pilot lounge filled with old guys hangar flying at some uncontrolled field out in the country.

When I teach, I have the same approach in a lot of ways. I don't have any experience teaching at a 141 school, but it seems like everything is so regimented and controlled at 141 schools. I'm all for following a syllabus and getting things done quickly, but I really like the flexibility of teaching part 61, being able to go outside the box in some ways and have more fun. I don't have to teach lessons in a set order, or fly the same cross countries to the same destinations over and over, or answer to a chief pilot, or anything like that.

I was visiting a 141 school one time and saw a list of "approved airports" posted on the wall. I asked one of the instructors what the airports were approved for, and he said those are the only airports they're allowed to take students to unless they get special permission from the chief pilot. It just made me laugh. The whole idea seems kind of ridiculous. If it's an airport, I want to fly there whether it's "approved" or not! But that kind of thing seems typical of the 141/flight academy world and I think it would get on my nerves after a while.

I like the variety of who I fly with, too. Of course some people are destined for an airline career, and that's cool in its own way, but I also like dealing with the people who want to fly for business, or because it's a personal challenge, or they want to buy their own plane, or just because they've wanted to fly ever since they were a little kid.

If I worked at a big flight academy, I think it would feel sort of sterile and repetitive after a while. All the students are similar in age, have pretty much the same motivations, they all have the same goals, it's always pushing to pass the next checkride, nobody does much "fun" flying where they take a plane up just for the hell of it, everything is the same. Maybe this is a misperception, but that's how I've always imagined it.

So I think it's the nature of the beast. Big flight academies serve a purpose, and I have no doubt they offer good quality training, but they simply don't fall in line with what a lot of career instructors are looking for.
 
jrh said:
To be blunt, I doubt you'll ever get truly long term (more than a year or two) instructors there no matter what you do.

It sounds like a good gig, but at the end of the day, you're still a big flight academy pushing people through to the airlines. Very few "lifer" instructors are interested in that kind of flying.

Most of the guys who really love to teach and want to do it on a long term basis are at FBOs, teaching a variety of students who may or may not be interested in an aviation career.

I wouldn't call myself a lifer by any means, but I have been teaching for a while, and I plan to keep teaching for a while. I keep going because I get excited about old school aviation. The kind of flying where you can fly out to an airport diner and have lunch, or go to an air show and camp with hundreds of other aircraft owners, or just go fly around and sightsee with a friend. I love practicing spins and doing takeoffs and landings on grass strips in the middle of nowhere. I think it's really cool when I fly through mountain passes or get a plane down and stopped in a couple hundred feet, not because I need to, but because I can. I push myself to be a better pilot not because I'm getting ready to pass a checkride or go for an airline interview, but because I think it's fun. I like teaching at big, busy airports, but I also like the atmosphere of the pilot lounge filled with old guys hangar flying at some uncontrolled field out in the country.

When I teach, I have the same approach in a lot of ways. I don't have any experience teaching at a 141 school, but it seems like everything is so regimented and controlled at 141 schools. I'm all for following a syllabus and getting things done quickly, but I really like the flexibility of teaching part 61, being able to go outside the box in some ways and have more fun. I don't have to teach lessons in a set order, or fly the same cross countries to the same destinations over and over, or answer to a chief pilot, or anything like that.

I was visiting a 141 school one time and saw a list of "approved airports" posted on the wall. I asked one of the instructors what the airports were approved for, and he said those are the only airports they're allowed to take students to unless they get special permission from the chief pilot. It just made me laugh. The whole idea seems kind of ridiculous. If it's an airport, I want to fly there whether it's "approved" or not! But that kind of thing seems typical of the 141/flight academy world and I think it would get on my nerves after a while.

I like the variety of who I fly with, too. Of course some people are destined for an airline career, and that's cool in its own way, but I also like dealing with the people who want to fly for business, or because it's a personal challenge, or they want to buy their own plane, or just because they've wanted to fly ever since they were a little kid.

If I worked at a big flight academy, I think it would feel sort of sterile and repetitive after a while. All the students are similar in age, have pretty much the same motivations, they all have the same goals, it's always pushing to pass the next checkride, nobody does much "fun" flying where they take a plane up just for the hell of it, everything is the same. Maybe this is a misperception, but that's how I've always imagined it.

So I think it's the nature of the beast. Big flight academies serve a purpose, and I have no doubt they offer good quality training, but they simply don't fall in line with what a lot of career instructors are looking for.
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:) nice, jrh...i can totally relate. yeah, i can say that 'i've been there and done that..' about the world of professional flying, at least all sorts of part 135..cargo, charter, air ambo..domestic, international..turboprops, jets....but in the end, i got my fill and returned to the basics..my original love of flying and helping others achieve their own goals and dreams. i swapped income for quality of life..no two ways about it. i'm relatively 'poor' now, but at 42 i just don't give a rat's ass. i'm going through a sad divorce, no kids..so what difference does it make..doesn't take that much to please me material wise anyway..now i fly when i want - not when that damn pager rings me..no more 1-2 weeks at a time on the road. i left behind any aviation ego i had long ago. keep up the good work, fella. you sound like my kind of pilot.. :bandit:
 
FWIW

When I instruct, I charge $50/hr. That's for everything.

Now, if a flight school were to kick in paid benefits (without any help from me) including health, dental, vision, disability and an option on life (with help from me - and not term...) that could drive me down a bit. Also, I enjoy flying for fun and taking the family (wife) for a trip. If I could get "free" access to a plane (Baron or something like that) for a couple of hours ever 3-4 months, that would be great. Don't forget paid vacation!

Of course, I'd ideally want a salary...getting paid by the hour as a CFI is a scary thing. All of the foreign contracts in the world don't mean anything to me as a CFI when they run out or the planes are in mx for 2 weeks straight.

It's all negotiable.

-mini

PS
Please don't make me wear a pilot uniform. Nothing is screwier than a CFI jumping out of a 150 with 4 stripes.
 
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