What to say and do to comments like these?

[British Pilot]

Take a deep breath. There are as many opinions out there as there are people. Learn to let it roll off your back and you will enjoy the life ahead much more.

Wise words, flyover.

This mentality we are all discussing occurs in EVERY industry. I know law students who would work at Boston's biggest law firms for half what they are paying their newly hired lawyers, just for the opportunity. They don't recognise the detriment to that industry, they want the chance....

Aviation is surely not unique in this respect. If this site was called www.lawcareers.com, or www.cpacareers.com, I am almost positive this thread would still exist.

 

[Bog]

"Pilots are being paid what they're worth. With advancements in technology, pilots are becoming obsolete."

Thoughts?

Yeah. That's funny.

 

[Bigey]

In regards to what to say and do...


Let your fists do the talking!!


Haha j/k. My suggestion, brush it off, dont let it bother you.

 

[Dugie8]

I truly believe...especially after flying heavy jets...that the talent required to fly one of these things in a complex environment safely...is something not everyone is going to be able to do. I don't think you could take a 1000 hour pilot and have them safely and competently operate a 500,000# machine. I'm rounding the corner of 9,000 hours toward 10k...had a typical career progression from CFI to freight to commuters to majors. After 6 years of flying 727s, 737s, and MD80s...I found the 767 to be a handful during engine out procedures and very gusty wind conditions. The descent planning is more tedious also...because the flap speeds are pretty low...and the airplane does not slow well in a descent. I think low timers and those with low talent would get killed.
snipped by Dugie.....

This is one thing, we as pilots need to get away from. It does not take talent to fly an airplane, it takes common sense and proper training, period. I went from pa44s to Dash8s, to the DC8 in a short amount of time, and I am by no means the best pilot in the world, and it wasn't that hard. The DC8 is argued to be the hardest "modern" (I know don't laugh, it is somewhat modern) aircraft to fly, maybe... I did my type ride/ATP ride in the DC8 with 2000 hours and no "captain" experience, save for flight instructing, no problme there either. The 8 doesn't slow well either in a descent, and no speed breaks, we can however use the inboards in reverse to help get down, but well you can imagine what that does to the airplane.
It doesn't take real brain power to fly an airplane, no matter the size, it takes straight forward common sense and creativity. I willing to be Einstein would be a horrible pilot, while guys/gals like us on this board do a pretty good job.
My point isn't to the pay issue, I think we all should be paid much more, to compensate for the immense responsibility Capt, FO, and FEs take on, plus time away from home and families, if the latter applies. My point is the attitude I see a few people have on flying and what it requires. Talent deffinately isn't one of the requirements. Training is the big one, attitude is probably up there on par with training, common sense, and then at the bottom of the barrel is experience, which I believe b767 may be using as synonym for "talent".
Sorry for the hijack

 

[B767Driver]

This is one thing, we as pilots need to get away from. It does not take talent to fly an airplane, it takes common sense and proper training, period. I went from pa44s to Dash8s, to the DC8 in a short amount of time, and I am by no means the best pilot in the world, and it wasn't that hard. The DC8 is argued to be the hardest "modern" (I know don't laugh, it is somewhat modern) aircraft to fly, maybe... I did my type ride/ATP ride in the DC8 with 2000 hours and no "captain" experience, save for flight instructing, no problme there either. The 8 doesn't slow well either in a descent, and no speed breaks, we can however use the inboards in reverse to help get down, but well you can imagine what that does to the airplane.
It doesn't take real brain power to fly an airplane, no matter the size, it takes straight forward common sense and creativity. I willing to be Einstein would be a horrible pilot, while guys/gals like us on this board do a pretty good job.
My point isn't to the pay issue, I think we all should be paid much more, to compensate for the immense responsibility Capt, FO, and FEs take on, plus time away from home and families, if the latter applies. My point is the attitude I see a few people have on flying and what it requires. Talent deffinately isn't one of the requirements. Training is the big one, attitude is probably up there on par with training, common sense, and then at the bottom of the barrel is experience, which I believe b767 may be using as synonym for "talent".
Sorry for the hijack

Most likely, you have talent and do not realize it. Surely, talent can be gained through experience...no argument there.

Have you worked in a training capacity? Or given many checkrides? Are you just giving examples based on your own experience of your own flying? After giving hundreds of airline simulator, flight training events, orals and checkrides...I feel comfortable saying that some people have more talent than others...it's noticeable and it does matter. It matters to the extent that some people fail checkrides, orals and even wash out of training. Even with excellent training. Some of it is due to the lack of 'brain power' available to process all of the procedures required manage the plane...it's path and the humans involved in the endeavor. Some of it is due to the inability to adequately control the airplane by instruments and stay ahead of it and it's path. I'd certainly say some brain power and basic airmanship talent is involved.

I'd have to take issue with you on the creativity attribute also. Typically, creativity in the cockpit is not viewed well nor does it work well in most situations. The tried and true checklist and non-normal procedures developed for the airplane should suffice for most situations. Very few situations should require a certain type of creative response. Certainly not much creativity involved in basic flying...it's all pretty much been laid out by those going before us. Create passenger PA's and flight kit stickers are ones that could require some creativity though...

Maybe you can give an example where creativity is a vital aspect to everyday flying...Id love to be able to change my mind.

 

[Dugie8]

Most likely, you have talent and do not realize it. Surely, talent can be gained through experience...no argument there.

Have you worked in a training capacity? Or given many checkrides? Are you just giving examples based on your own experience of your own flying? After giving hundreds of airline simulator, flight training events, orals and checkrides...I feel comfortable saying that some people have more talent than others...it's noticeable and it does matter. It matters to the extent that some people fail checkrides, orals and even wash out of training. Even with excellent training.

I'd have to take issue with you on the creativity attribute also. Typically, creativity in the cockpit is not viewed well nor does it work well in most situations. The tried and true checklist and non-normal procedures developed for the airplane should suffice for most situations. Very few situations should require a certain type of creative response. Certainly not much creativity involved in basic flying...it's all pretty much been laid out by those going before us. Create passenger PA's and flight kit stickers are ones that could require some creativity though...

767
thanks for the reply. When I say "creativity" it is more towards the way we approach flying. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and about double that on how to get a DC8 down from altitude! I'm with you, cowboys in the cockpit, not a good day on the farm pilgrim.

I did a lot of training and checkrides as a CFI, granted these folks were at the beginning of their learning curve, but you would think talent would be most obvious then. What I saw was poor training (CFIs just getting there time) and poor attitudes. I really can't say one person flew better than another because of talent.
An example I can use, is at my first airline, my class sailed through training, no problems. We all had the mindset that we have been given a great oppurtunity, run with it you fool!!! Now as more of our "peers" that we had instructed with came in behind us, those that had easily double the flying experience were washing out, because of attitude. Granted I wasn't there at the actual wash out event, but just knowing these people from my previous life, it wasn't much of a stretch to connect the dots.
I think it is awfully presumptious of us as pilots, to say it takes talent. It takes talent to play football, or to hit that stupid little white ball 275 yards down the fairway.
If someone has a good attitude and works hard, there is absolutely no reason that person should wash out of training, if so, the training is bad. You know as well as I do, this job is not hard and the training is even easier, if done correctly.
We as pilots like to think we are special, that we do something magical and most of the public believes it. However, our egos are our own worst enemy. You mentioned in a post that flying the 767 on one engine in gusty conditions is a bit tough. I looked at the QRH for the DC8 under two engine approaches, and it basically says, find someplace with little or no wind and crosswind. Why, not because we can't do it, but because it is an unecessary addition to the workload. The reason I bring this up, is I see this example all the time about engine out and gusty winds, and the captain, or whomever is flying, be a great pilot because they landed the airplane in those conditions, while I'm asking myself, why did they choose to land in those conditions? Maybe it was the only option, but most likely not. Of course you could be talking about a sim event, and Im lucky enough that our sims are fairly inept in recreating windy conditions! :nana2:

Whats the point? There really isn't one. I like my job, check that I love it, I do it to the best of my ability, know my limitations and make an effort to reduce them. Does that make me a "talented" pilot, I don't think so, it makes me someone who likes there job and strives to be as good at it as I possibly can. Measuring other people on the abilities of someone else is a poor measure of ability, especially in the sims, orals or even on the line.

I'm not trying to dimminsh what it is we do, not at all. I don't like "elitist" attitudes (yup Im in the wrong profession) because it bleeds over into the cockpit and everyday flying.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

It absolutely takes talent to be a professional pilot!

It takes the inherent "talent" of leadership, decision making and judgment.

Believe me, these "talents" are not commonplace.

 

[B767Driver]

767

I'm not trying to dimminsh what it is we do, not at all. I don't like "elitist" attitudes (yup Im in the wrong profession) because it bleeds over into the cockpit and everyday flying.

I don't think it's an elitist attitude. I also think it's dangerous to some degree to state that it doesn't take talent to fly an airplane. This is what leads some 150 hour pilot with a brand new instrument rating to get tangled up in a situation that is over his head. You read about it all the time...a guy in a Bonanza or Twin Comanche that can't track the localizer and glideslope and and crashes somewhere around the airport. Situations like these require preparation, training, experience and talent. To suggest that these situations are easy...is to lead the "untalented and inexperienced" into a bad situation...one that they may not get out of. Just because you can do it...doesn't mean everyone can. Alot of people can't!

Maybe instead of talent...let's use the word 'aptitude'. You must possess a certain aptitude to be able to put all of the pieces together to make it happen safely. A pilot with a certain aptitude can learn how to operate safely...given the appropriate training and experience...and judgment.

Still...at one time...I couldn't break 95 over 18 holes of golf. After some dedicated practice and a few years of playing...I can now break 80. Is that all because of training and practice? Or did I groom some hidden talent. Maybe the talent was the result of dedicated practice and play. When I shot in the upper 90's...I would not say I was talented. Breaking 80...to most people is somewhat talented.

So now I'm a bit confused...but I'd have to stand by where I started. I think through training and experience you have become a talented pilot. The fact that you have become a pro...it doesn't feel that difficult to you. That's because you have groomed your skills in a short period of time.

You had the aptitude to groom your talent...and have done so in a short period of time. You're probably more talented than most. But...I really would caution you about letting people think it's easy. Some fool will believe you and end up getting hurt.

 

[B767Driver]

.

Believe me, these "talents" are not commonplace.

No doubt, Creepy has learned this thru his experience. For awhile you believe everyone has your aptitude and dedication.

After some observation over the years...you find out that this is not true...and you wonder how some people ever made it through KC135 school.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

No doubt, Creepy has learned this thru his experience. For awhile you believe everyone has your aptitude and dedication.

After some observation over the years...you find out that this is not true...and you wonder how some people ever made it through KC135 school.

I flew with a guy at Midway who had not one, two, three but four types! I still don't know how this guy could have passed a single checkride.

He was "booksmart" but when it came to judgment? Well let's just say the wheel was turning but the hamster was dead.

 

[gurisudenko]

I was browsing another site and noticed comments like these:

"Look at all those snobby pilots on the picket line. I'd gladly fly for Delta for $40,000 a year if I had the ability to do so."

"Amen to that, 40k a year I would gladly fly for them!"

"Heh.. Me too.. "
quote]

We go through so much just trying to acquire the amount of skill it takes to eventually work for a carrier like Delta. My whole life has been turned upside down and all of my friends think I'm crazy. I don't buy books for my classes, sold my meal plan, and eat very minimally all in hope of one day having that level of skill. Through years of that sort of thing being the norm, I can see how people would want to take 40k a year.

But, wow. Come on. People have no idea. Hence, the strike, and the collective voice that hopefully gets attention from the right decision-makers.

I get so worried about people getting undercompensated in our industry. Reminds me of my instructor. If I could pay him more out of pocket, I would.

 

[Dugie8]

I don't think it's an elitist attitude. I also think it's dangerous to some degree to state that it doesn't take talent to fly an airplane. This is what leads some 150 hour pilot with a brand new instrument rating to get tangled up in a situation that is over his head. You read about it all the time...a guy in a Bonanza or Twin Comanche that can't track the localizer and glideslope and and crashes somewhere around the airport. Situations like these require preparation, training, experience and talent. To suggest that these situations are easy...is to lead the "untalented and inexperienced" into a bad situation...one that they may not get out of. Just because you can do it...doesn't mean everyone can. Alot of people can't!

Maybe instead of talent...let's use the word 'aptitude'. You must possess a certain aptitude to be able to put all of the pieces together to make it happen safely. A pilot with a certain aptitude can learn how to operate safely...given the appropriate training and experience...and judgment.

Still...at one time...I couldn't break 95 over 18 holes of golf. After some dedicated practice and a few years of playing...I can now break 80. Is that all because of training and practice? Or did I groom some hidden talent. Maybe the talent was the result of dedicated practice and play. When I shot in the upper 90's...I would not say I was talented. Breaking 80...to most people is somewhat talented.

So now I'm a bit confused...but I'd have to stand by where I started. I think through training and experience you have become a talented pilot. The fact that you have become a pro...it doesn't feel that difficult to you. That's because you have groomed your skills in a short period of time.

You had the aptitude to groom your talent...and have done so in a short period of time. You're probably more talented than most. But...I really would caution you about letting people think it's easy. Some fool will believe you and end up getting hurt.

Maybe your right, I don't consider myself exceptional in anyway, and for this to be easy for me (flying) it seems to me it shouldn't take much talent. I agree, aptitude is a better word, to me that is ability to learn and apply what you haved learned. It may be the word "talent" I take more issue with, than the actual abilities of pilots. Talnet, to me, implies a select few, where aptitude implies anyone with the correct attitude and dedication can do it. Maybe its just mincing words, and not really an argument point, just my opinions.

 

[Tim]

Remember what they say about opinions and a**holes everybody got one.

The people that make these comments are you ones that sit in the back and complain but as soon as the poo-poo hits the fan they would be willing to pay you whatever it takes to save there sorry hinies. I dont fly professionally but I can tell you learning a new airplane whether its a 172 or a 767 is not easy. You still have to know how the systems work in case of poo-poo trying fly. I say give them the infamous words of BITE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! or if you can do it better come join the ranks. Thats what I use to tell parents and coaches when I was a basketball ref and baseball umpire.

 

[flyover]

767
thanks for the reply. When I say "creativity" it is more towards the way we approach flying. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and about double that on how to get a DC8 down from altitude! I'm with you, cowboys in the cockpit, not a good day on the farm pilgrim.

Just to emphasize what B767Driver said: Back in my DC-8 days I heard that "more than one way to skin a cat" saying many times. It was one of the more dangerous periods of my flying career, where a captain was considered a little strange if he didn't do something different than the other captains.

One of the main reasons that safety has steadily improved is standardization of procedures. There really aren't very many ways to get a DC-8 down from altitude and only one or two "right" ways to do it. And for each crew the "right" way is the one they are all expecting according to their training and procedures.

 

[B767Driver]

Just to emphasize what B767Driver said: Back in my DC-8 days I heard that "more than one way to skin a cat" saying many times. It was one of the more dangerous periods of my flying career, where a captain was considered a little strange if he didn't do something different than the other captains.

One of the main reasons that safety has steadily improved is standardization of procedures. There really aren't very many ways to get a DC-8 down from altitude and only one or two "right" ways to do it. And for each crew the "right" way is the one they are all expecting according to their training and procedures.

Must've been a tough time to be a co-pilot. DC-8...were you a co-pilot in late '70s...'80's? What differences can you relate between being a copilot then and now?

Nowadays, when it's the co-pilot's leg to fly...it seems that the captains leave them alone to fly the airplane as they wish and to make their own decisions....i.e. altitude to fly...when to start down...approach to fly...etc. Of course decisions to reject a landing, a takeoff, when to divert still stay with the captain...as they should.

 

[B767Driver]

I just happened to read the Aftermath article in Flying Magazine, April 2006, p. 65 by Peter Garrison.

The article very closely addresses some issues we're talking about. It's a pretty good read.

 

[flyover]

Must've been a tough time to be a co-pilot. DC-8...were you a co-pilot in late '70s...'80's? What differences can you relate between being a copilot then and now?

The differences are: standardization, CRM, and taking as much judgment as possible out of the picture.

The accident rate was much higher during the 70s and 80s because we were relying on captain's judgment in areas like windshear, ground icing and system abnormals. Most of the safety improvements have been the result of taking creativity and judgment out of the equation.

Unstable approaches were the norm. It was not unusual to hear a captain say "watch this" while trying to impress his crew, all with a load of passengers.

I just got back from a get together with other "retired" guys. We spent a few hours talking about some of the "colorful" and dangerous captains we flew with early in our careers.

Training, standard procedures, over-powered airplanes, CRM, limitations and procedures that remove the necessity for judgment. These all trump experience in my opinion. And it's the reason that safety keeps improving despite experience levels decreasing.

Any flight operations that rely heavily on the experience and judgment of the captain are, by definition, dangerous ops.

That's why we are still vulnerable to windshear and thunderstorm related accidents. It's an area still relying on judgment and decision making, with inadequate training or real-time information to make those decisions. So this summer we'll have thousands of takeoffs and approaches conducted through thunderstorms. Most will be uneventful and some will require windshear escape manuvers. If we're unlucky we'll have an accident like Air France in YYZ or American at LIT.

 

[tonyw]

Talnet, to me, implies a select few, where aptitude implies anyone with the correct attitude and dedication can do it.

Ask your average major leaguer about hitting a 90 mph fastball and he'll shrug and say it's no big deal.

I used to think like you did, that I was just an average Joe. Then I started splitting safety pilot time with some people who were already instrument rated.

I got a much higher opinion of my skills and abilities after doing that. And keep in mind these are instrument rated pilots, and I'm not.

When I consistently shot approaches better than they did I started to realize, hmm, maybe I AM better than the average Joe and the instructors who told me that weren't just blowing smoke to make me feel better.

That doesn't mean I've got it all down. I've still got enough to learn to fill a 747 freighter. But it does mean I've got a little more to work with than your average pilot.

And, your average pilot is still a rare breed. We're talking what, one percent of the population?

 

[CFIse]

And, your average pilot is still a rare breed. We're talking what, one percent of the population?

That, with all due respect is what makes the public unsympathetic to pilots.

The average pilot is 1% of the population for 2 reasons, money and dedication (and mostly dedication is about putting up with little money).

I know some perfectly good pilots with a high school education who found the money and had the dedication to make flying a career. I'd guess most people with a high school education, and many without can be taught to fly a plane at the airline level. I've flown with some good pilots who are not very bright, some with truly TERRIBLE math skills - all perfectly good pilots.

You're not some super human - you had access and some dedication, but you're not smarter than most of the world, and in fact if you chose a job in aviation it could be argued you're not that bright to start of with.

Should we be rewarded for our initial investment and our dedication to getting where we have, maybe, but it's a hard case to make to the general public who, after all, would claim THEY had to work hard and give up things to get where they are.

 

[Dugie8]

Hey guys, thanks for all the input, I appreciate the point of views. Please don't take my comments on "skinning a cat" as a cowboy attitude, if you have flown the DC8 you know full well there is more than one way to descend, 280 knots, 300 knots, with power, without power, etc, thats what I meant. B767, I thought about what I said about "creativity" and a better word for what I was trying to say would be intuition, the ability to see whats coming and adapt to it.

As far as the public perception of us, I could really care less. These same people would drive an extra 2 hours out of there way to save 100 dollars on a ticket, kind of says something about their judgement skills, no?

Quick question for 767, which model of the 767 do you fly?