What makes a good First Officer?

[PositionAndHold]

I've always been taught, "Violations come in two's". It's everyones ass on the line. If you know/think something's wrong, speak up, 'cause your probably gonna pay the same price. Remember, it's a "crew" environment. Just ask the Northwest "crew" that over-shot minn.

 

[AMTK462]

Q: What makes a good First Officer?
A: Being a good Capt. candidate.

 

[v1valarob]

It's.... "clear right, you're right, I'll take the fat one."

 

[Firebird2XC]

Like said above, "a good Captain candidate."

The Captain is the leader of the crew. Before you can be a good leader, you must learn to be a good follower. A good First Officer thinks like a Captain and uses that to anticipate what the actual Captain might want or need in a given situation, then prepares to meet that need.

This includes any and all aspects of the operation.. up to and including the statement, "Captain, I don't understand or agree with your assessment of the situation. Can we look at that again?"

The exact phrasing and how it plays out may vary from one individual to the next, but the basis is the same.

 

[Bumblebee]

a good left cross

 

[Firebird2XC]

a good left cross

*raised eyebrow*

Story time! opcorn:

 

[DE727UPS]

"Be useful in the cockpit, and that means be assertive and speak up."

Plus one.

 

[Lee D]

Q: What makes a good First Officer?
A: Being a good Capt. candidate.

I'll second. . . or third that. Once an f/o has some time and experience, I expect to see some command ability. Someone that can be a bit of a chameleon but takes incentive and is not afraid to speak up if he/or she really doesn't like something. There is a fine line here too, Of course no one, captain or F/O, likes to be micro managed.

A nearly constant negative attitude goes a long way towards driving me batty too. Everyone has days that are loaded with crap, but if every time we fly I hear about how much you hate your pay, the company, your wife's cooking and fluffy kittens, it gets old.

 

[germb747]

Just curious. Do most civilian operators have a mechanism in place whereby a member of the crew can raise a concern and then must be given an opportunity to discuss those concerns? In the USAF, we have the CRM assertiveness statements "time out" or "knock it off" which are immediate clues to the aircraft commander to stabilize the aircraft, slow down, and take a second look at things. Ultimately, it's still his decision, but those magic words will tie the ACs hands, at least long enough to listen to what the crewmember has to say.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Just curious. Do most civilian operators have a mechanism in place whereby a member of the crew can raise a concern and then must be given an opportunity to discuss those concerns? In the USAF, we have the CRM assertiveness statements "time out" or "knock it off" which are immediate clues to the aircraft commander to stabilize the aircraft, slow down, and take a second look at things. Ultimately, it's still his decision, but those magic words will tie the ACs hands, at least long enough to listen to what the crewmember has to say.

From a regulatory stance? Magic words? Don't think so.. at least not in my experience. The phrase, "Captain, I am seriously uncomfortable about this," usually works, at least the few times I've had to use it.

The phrase "I'm not sure about this, can we verify?" works well too. With ATC readbacks it's almost unspoken nowadays. Confusion on the clearance? Punch the PTT and ask again. No sweat.

 

[Bumblebee]

a good left cross

*raised eyebrow*

Story time! opcorn:

here's the story... I was flying with a captain who told me he was very depressed about his fiancee, and how he sometimes felt suicidal...I put my hands behind the yoke when we were close to the ground (it was the last leg) and told him that he should not say stuff like that, particularly when we're flying!

I was prepared to knock him out if necessary. He is a very nice guy, and I didn't really feel in danger, just uncomfortable.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Me

 

[Firebird2XC]

here's the story... I was flying with a captain who told me he was very depressed about his fiancee, and how he sometimes felt suicidal...I put my hands behind the yoke when we were close to the ground (it was the last leg) and told him that he should not say stuff like that, particularly when we're flying!

I was prepared to knock him out if necessary. He is a very nice guy, and I didn't really feel in danger, just uncomfortable.

Geezus! He told you he felt suicidal and he kept flying?

Durr. I had to watch a Captain like that once. Not suicidal, but definitely not in sync with the world around him. Stuck on fast-forward. Tragically, his infant son had recently drowned. His marriage tanked. Spent most of the trip babysitting him. He was starting to unravel as things went on. Finally we had to have a 'come to Jesus' talk about 'slowing down' during a long cruise leg. PTSD was having its way with him.

Never thought I'd have to ponder rejecting a Captain.

I guess that's one of the harder nuances of being the First Officer and 'second in command'. Like in the movie 'Crimson Tide'... when do you stop echoing the Captain and tell him "Sorry skipper, I'm going to take over or stop this outright..."

I guess that's one answer that only experience and intuition will lead you to. Sure, the Captain shows up smashed drunk, that's easy.. but what if the guy just can't hold it together?

(Anybody?)

 

[cmill]

Geezus! He told you he felt suicidal and he kept flying?

Durr. I had to watch a Captain like that once. Not suicidal, but definitely not in sync with the world around him. Stuck on fast-forward. Tragically, his infant son had recently drowned. His marriage tanked. Spent most of the trip babysitting him. He was starting to unravel as things went on. Finally we had to have a 'come to Jesus' talk about 'slowing down' during a long cruise leg. PTSD was having its way with him.

Never thought I'd have to ponder rejecting a Captain.

I guess that's one of the harder nuances of being the First Officer and 'second in command'. Like in the movie 'Crimson Tide'... when do you stop echoing the Captain and tell him "Sorry skipper, I'm going to take over or stop this outright..."

I guess that's one answer that only experience and intuition will lead you to. Sure, the Captain shows up smashed drunk, that's easy.. but what if the guy just can't hold it together?

(Anybody?)

I dont know. If you didnt know anything about his background, would you have thought he was just having a bad day?

Theres a difference between being depressed and pissed off and depressed. I wouldnt be too concerned about a depressed captain trying to make a smoking hole, as much as a disgruntled FE, a la fedex.

I think it really comes down to the individual situation. Some guys might be hurting, and are just looking to vent, or get something off their mind. Thats not really a cause to relieve them of duty. Unless they show consistently that they cant handle themselves, then i would let it be.

 

[MikeD]

Durr. I had to watch a Captain like that once. Not suicidal, but definitely not in sync with the world around him. Stuck on fast-forward. Tragically, his infant son had recently drowned. His marriage tanked. Spent most of the trip babysitting him. He was starting to unravel as things went on. Finally we had to have a 'come to Jesus' talk about 'slowing down' during a long cruise leg. PTSD was having its way with him.


(Anybody?)

I wouldn't be too worried about it. I mean, haven't you had bad days or something happen that just messed life up for you for a while? You felt bothered inside, maybe hurt or such; but that was all part and parcel to the job you had to do and you more or less kept it that way? Am sure you've been there, we all have at some point; some of us recently, others a longer time ago. It's all what you do with it that counts.

 

[Bumblebee]

I think we are all in agreement:beer:

I think it really comes down to the individual situation. Some guys might be hurting, and are just looking to vent, or get something off their mind. Thats not really a cause to relieve them of duty. Unless they show consistently that they cant handle themselves, then i would let it be.

I guess that's one of the harder nuances of being the First Officer and 'second in command'. Like in the movie 'Crimson Tide'... when do you stop echoing the Captain and tell him "Sorry skipper, I'm going to take over or stop this outright..."

I guess that's one answer that only experience and intuition will lead you to.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I wouldn't be too worried about it. I mean, haven't you had bad days or something happen that just messed life up for you for a while? You felt bothered inside, maybe hurt or such; but that was all part and parcel to the job you had to do and you more or less kept it that way? Am sure you've been there, we all have at some point; some of us recently, others a longer time ago. It's all what you do with it that counts.

True. My point with this particular Captain is that things would happen in fast-forward. He'd call for a checklist, then in the middle of it, start doing something else entirely that completely diverted his attention. He was terse at best.. and at one point started swearing at the rampers.

He behavior was just a little too 'gear grinder' for me to feel okay with his state of mind in command of the aircraft. We had an in-flight failure of one of the hydraulic systems and that was about the point when he looked like he was going to melt down.

It takes a lot in a Captain to make me nervous. This guy made me nervous.

I think it really comes down to the individual situation. Some guys might be hurting, and are just looking to vent, or get something off their mind. Thats not really a cause to relieve them of duty. Unless they show consistently that they cant handle themselves, then i would let it be.

He was starting to show this pattern. I tried talking to him to de-escalate things and make him more aware of his behavior and that seemed to help. He just needed a little support that was atypical to the norm. That raises eyebrows in my world. If he'd kept it up, I'd have suggested he call in sick and take a day off.

 

[SurferLucas]

... but what if the guy just can't hold it together?

(Anybody?)

I was lucky enough to fly with 2 Delta guys (1 furloughed, 1 retired) when I was an "Ink-Dry" CFI. Even with my whole 300 hours, when I flew with them it was "If you see anything you don't think seems right, speak up right then..."

It's always been my opinion that a good FO is one that thinks like a Captain. Meaning, they're always maintaining that SA and ready to take command if need be.

As a retired Horizon Asst Chief Pilot said to me in my interview, "I'm only going to hire you if I think you're going to be ready to take command of a situation. I only hire FO's that are going to become Captains...so that means you had better be ready to think like a Captain. Is that something you can do?"

My only real experience with a Captain "loosing it" was on a flight into LAX in the Q4. It was an early morning flight, Captain's the PF. The wx goes down to nearly CAT III mins when we were about 25 nm's out. SoCal gave us a hold that was really close to our position. I don't know what "triggered" it, but my Captain blew a fuse at that point. Yelling at me "Tell them we're unable, I can't program something that fast!"

After getting a new holding fix from SoCal, he continued to spaz out on me. To the point where I built the hold in my FMS, flipped the AP to where it was driving off of my FMS and told him to relax, take a deep breath and catchup...no reason to get bent out of shape.

He just couldn't get his head on straight and I was started to question if he could fly a CAT III(A) approach at LAX, as the HUD is on the Captain's side and FO's aren't trained to use it. I was seriously considering a diversion to Ontario because he was just not with me in the airplane mentally.

Thankfully the weather came up to CAT I mins and I was able to fly the approach into LAX.

After we parked, he and I had a closed door talk. He ended up calling in sick and flying home. That left me in LAX for 4 hours awaiting a new Captain.

Atleast I got to eat at the In-and-Out burger next to 24R!

 

[Firebird2XC]

I think we are all in agreement:beer:

More or less. It's a subtle issue with serious concerns involved. Ultimately it comes down to communication, I suppose. If you can still talk about it, it can probably be worked out.

I once flew with a Captain who wasn't always too prone to talking about things. I had to make the point that he was getting hard to fly with- that his attitude was inhibiting CRM. I went so far as to say as "You're hard to fly with- and I'm not the only one saying it- I'm the only one saying it to your face."

A little honesty and candor goes a long way. I was hard on him, but he took heed and grew as a leader as a result. I'd fly with that guy anytime, anywhere.

 

[cmill]

True. My point with this particular Captain is that things would happen in fast-forward. He'd call for a checklist, then in the middle of it, start doing something else entirely that completely diverted his attention. He was terse at best.. and at one point started swearing at the rampers.

He behavior was just a little too 'gear grinder' for me to feel okay with his state of mind in command of the aircraft. We had an in-flight failure of one of the hydraulic systems and that was about the point when he looked like he was going to melt down.

It takes a lot in a Captain to make me nervous. This guy made me nervous.



He was starting to show this pattern. I tried talking to him to de-escalate things and make him more aware of his behavior and that seemed to help. He just needed a little support that was atypical to the norm. That raises eyebrows in my world. If he'd kept it up, I'd have suggested he call in sick and take a day off.

Theres some people who look like their always on edge or about to lose it no matter the situation. That doesnt mean that they cant handle it. I wouldnt start to worry until he actually starts to screw up.

My boss is about as high strung as they come. Always fiddling with a knob or a lever or bitching about something, but that doesnt make me trust him any less.

Until you have a concrete reason to doubt someone, dont waste your energy worrying about it.