What is with all the doom and gloom

Autothrust Blue said:
Ding! Ding! Ding!

The situation now is not really any different from any other time in the last decade, I think. I remain optimistic, but somewhat guarded. :)
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The situation in 2008 was much more dire than what we're experiencing now. Oil prices are on the high side now (still not as high as they were then) and we were going into recession then. Consumer confidence was considerably lower which meant a lot of discretionary spending (travel) was being curtailed. While things aren't totally rosy now there are more people who are willing to spend.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yeah we can talk about how everything is just coming up roses when pay rates are commensurate with what they were in the 70s (Even I'm not ambitious enough to hope for the 60s). Till then, no, I'm not going to get excited about a few more crumbs being swept off the feast table. *shrug*. I think you're setting your sights a little low.
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I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but when things are down we get pissed and whine (usually for good reason) but when things improve the whining increases... I'm not jumping for joy, just basking in a little positive news. . Also I'm guessing the company did because they had to not bc they wanted too...
 
Baronman said:
The situation in 2008 was much more dire than what we're experiencing now. Oil prices are on the high side now (still not as high as they were then) and we were going into recession then. Consumer confidence was considerably lower which meant a lot of discretionary spending (travel) was being curtailed. While things aren't totally rosy now there are more people who are willing to spend.
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The only way 2008 can even remotely be compared to this year is if Age 70 is passed in December. If it isn't, its going to be a field day for pilots starting next year. Heck, maybe even this fall with UNICAL probably hiring
 
Well there's a push to do away with the madatory retirement age entirely.

And I'm not even kidding. I wish I was but "there are certain people that, instead of fighting it, want a seat at the table to craft the rules and enjoy the buffet spread" in control.

The Canadians, in a backwards way, just did it.
 
It hasn't really been done in Canada quite yet. It's still a bit up in the air what the ruling from the Human Rights Commission really meant, and how it affects collective agreements. As far as the retirement age being eliminated here, I wouldn't bet on it. As long as ICAO keeps it at 65, I'm sure we will as well. It'll take ICAO changing their standard before we do, and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It hasn't really been done in Canada quite yet. It's still a bit up in the air what the ruling from the Human Rights Commission really meant, and how it affects collective agreements. As far as the retirement age being eliminated here, I wouldn't bet on it. As long as ICAO keeps it at 65, I'm sure we will as well. It'll take ICAO changing their standard before we do, and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
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The Canadian government cannot age-discriminate against federal employees. Since Air Canada is owned by the government, ipso facto they can't enforce ICAO retirement restrictions on pilots that don't fly in airspace governed by ICAO. Looks like YYZ-YVR just went senior.
 
Wait, instead of "ipso facto", wouldn't that be a "ergo"?

Do we have any Grammar Nazis or well-versed attorneys on site this eve?
 
Doug Taylor said:
The Canadian government cannot age-discriminate against federal employees. Since Air Canada is owned by the government, ipso facto they can't enforce ICAO retirement restrictions on pilots that don't fly in airspace governed by ICAO. Looks like YYZ-YVR just went senior.
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Air Canada isn't owned by the government. It used to be, but Canada had its own version of deregulation in the late '80s, and Air Canada has been a private corporation ever since. What you're probably talking about is that airlines are considered to be part of what Canada calls the "federal sector," and the Human Rights Commission ruled that federal sector companies can't discriminate based on age, including mandatory retirement ages. However, at this point, it still isn't clear how this applies to the airlines. There could still be exemptions, or the collective agreement between the Air Canada Pilots Association and Air Canada could be governing, since it's a consensual agreement. None of this is clear yet.
 
the Grammar nazis r on brake right now; but, I can releeve them.

I'd say ergo and cross out the "since."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Air Canada isn't owned by the government. It used to be, but Canada had its own version of deregulation in the late '80s, and Air Canada has been a private corporation ever since. What you're probably talking about is that airlines are considered to be part of what Canada calls the "federal sector," and the Human Rights Commission ruled that federal sector companies can't discriminate based on age, including mandatory retirement ages. However, at this point, it still isn't clear how this applies to the airlines. There could still be exemptions, or the collective agreement between the Air Canada Pilots Association and Air Canada could be governing, since it's a consensual agreement. None of this is clear yet.
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Interesting stuff. All airlines are considered federal sector then? Just wondered. A co-worker went to Air Transat a few months ago and there are a few other Canadian citizens in my base.

What's the estimated timeline on them coming out with an interpretation?
 
Nick said:
Interesting stuff. All airlines are considered federal sector then?
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That's my understanding, but I'm not an expert. There could be exceptions.

What's the estimated timeline on them coming out with an interpretation?
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Not really sure. The Canada Board president gave us an update on this at our last Executive Council meeting last week, but it was just a quick update, so I'm not up on all of the details.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Well there's a push to do away with the madatory retirement age entirely.

And I'm not even kidding. I wish I was but "there are certain people that, instead of fighting it, want a seat at the table to craft the rules and enjoy the buffet spread" in control.

The Canadians, in a backwards way, just did it.
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Does anyone really want that though? I'm making plans to at least semi -retire before 60 or 65, I'd like flying to be more a hobby by that point in my life than a necessity to pay the mortgage. Also wouldn't the airlines want to push all the high-paid old farts off to pasture to replace them with some new young blood for less pay? And to top it off it'd be a little crazy to see some cute 25 year old flight attendant helping the Captain into his seat and give him his pills... just sayin' :D
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Does anyone really want that though? I'm making plans to at least semi -retire before 60 or 65, I'd like flying to be more a hobby by that point in my life than a necessity to pay the mortgage. Also wouldn't the airlines want to push all the high-paid old farts off to pasture to replace them with some new young blood for less pay? And to top it off it'd be a little crazy to see some cute 25 year old flight attendant helping the Captain into his seat and give him his pills... just sayin' :D
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I think the same way. It is pretty sad if 65+ year olds are still flying just to pay for their medicine and prescription pills. I guess at that point our profession would only be slightly better than Walmart greeter.
 
Pretty sad? Flying a widebody around the world making 200k+? I don't blame them. Being an International Widebody Captain is one of best jobs in the world. I would have done the same had I been in their shoes. In fact, I fully intend to fly til my 65th birthday. I'm treating this career Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno style, staying in the cockpit til they pry me out:D
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, that's pretty sad. Life is about a hell of a lot more than hurtling metal through the air until your hair is gray and falling out. You'll find me on a beach in Brazil at 65. Not in some confined space with another dude at 37,000 feet.
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Yep, flying is great, but I can actually get my fix in a cloth covered single..... now if someone would just pay me 80k or so to do that.
What's really great is having the time and money to do whatever the hell I want to do.
 
embraer07 said:
I think the same way. It is pretty sad if 65+ year olds are still flying just to pay for their medicine and prescription pills. I guess at that point our profession would only be slightly better than Walmart greeter.
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Most of the 60-plus pilots I know are trying to pay bills, would leave if they had medical care, etc, not necessarily the most senior people either.

A lot of out 60-plussers are flying because the "have to" not because they "want to" because this is a difficult job, especially international. And there are a lot of 60+ FOs too.

When I'm back on my laptop I'll try to throw down some figures, but it's not going to be pretty.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, that's pretty sad. Life is about a hell of a lot more than hurtling metal through the air until your hair is gray and falling out. You'll find me on a beach in Brazil at 65. Not in some confined space with another dude at 37,000 feet.
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You commie... Take that work ethic to Europe or Brazil where everyone gets six weeks paid vacation a year.

This is 'Merica! We live to work and do it till we drop dead from exaustion. Who needs free time/family/friends??
 
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